The Missoula Floods, Channeled Scablands, and Drumheller Channels

[Hill]

 

"Glacial Lake Columbia (west) and Glacial Lake Missoula (east) are shown in blue, south of the Cordilleran Ice Sheet. The areas inundated during the Missoula Floods and Columbia Floods are shown in red."

Missoula Floods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

At the end of the last Ice Age, continental glaciers repeatedly dammed meltwater lakes at their southern margin. These ice dams fractured and reformed multiple times creating catastrophic terrain in the Pacific Northwest that we call Channeled Scablands. Other depositional and erosional evidence remains and can be detected to this day.

http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/projects/geoweb/participants/dutch/GRAPHIC0/LkPendOreille/LMissDamAnim1.gif

Turtle mentions

The unexplained things have historically, and yet remain today all too frequently, been attributed to the gods. Scientifically we know better, for example there is every reason to believe humans may have witnessed some of the Missoula floods, which scoured out the entire scab-lands of Eastern Washington and deposited hundreds of feet of rock downstream. I live on top of one of those deposits. )

living on top of the Missoula Flood deposits, but I haven't found much about their origin here as I searched for previous posts. Some time ago using Google Earth, I located where they took place. Later in an update, I added more information and was able, due to improved imagery, to locate many of the flood features. Google Earth Community: Channeled Scablands and Drumheller Channels is where you can find the thread and download the kml file which will let you explore the area in 3D.

Below is and image courtesy of NASA's World Wind program. It is a view of giant ripple marks created as a glacial lake to the north emptied into the Camas Prairie Basin. I exaggerated the current ripples 5X before making this screen capture.

 

 

Much further south and west this flood, and others like it, created the Channeled Scablands of Washington.

 

[Godspeed2012]

I have pictures that prove that the whole world was flooded completly at one point or many but cant post it till i hit 10 posts.

 

From the pics i have as the earth water receded probaly due to earth expansion theory, and as the ancient south pole ice cap stayed stationary as as the world turned beneath the Ocean allowing antarctica to slide under the ice cap positioning antarctica at the southpole due to pole shifting and as the earth expanded the oceans receaded leaving an ice sheet standing 2700 or more meters above sea level. After applying 2700 meters of sea level to the North America, it is interesting to see the all that is sticking out of the water is Colorado Mountains which the sea level seems to coralate with the ancient cost lines. I will post pics when i can.

 

Would it be fair to say that the scablands is just the end result of a shallow violently draining shallow sea?

[Hill]

I have pictures that prove that the whole world was flooded completly at one point or many but cant post it till i hit 10 posts.

 

From the pics i have as the earth water receded probaly due to earth expansion theory, and as the ancient south pole ice cap stayed stationary as as the world turned beneath the Ocean allowing antarctica to slide under the ice cap positioning antarctica at the southpole due to pole shifting and as the earth expanded the oceans receaded leaving an ice sheet standing 2700 or more meters above sea level. After applying 2700 meters of sea level to the North America, it is interesting to see the all that is sticking out of the water is Colorado Mountains which the sea level seems to coralate with the ancient cost lines. I will post pics when i can.

 

Would it be fair to say that the scablands is just the end result of a shallow violently draining shallow sea?

If you change the term sea to glacial lake, it would be more than fair, but to say that the whole earth was submerged as in a "great flood" is not supportable.

 

If "the pictures' are what I'm thinking of, they are animations which prove nothing, but they do illustrate a hypothesis without evidence. One of the collection of videos is already posted here in Hypography somewhere, but the search terms I used didn't find it.:shrug: So Earth somehow expanded like a giant rock balloon? The idea seems to ignore a whole bunch of scientific research and theory, not the least of which is the creation of matter so it can swell from the inside out. Or maybe the originator of the idea proposes a hollow earth? Hollow Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Godspeed2012]

How would you explain the height of the glaciers at the south pole averaging around 2700 meters above sea level?

 

Not only that, but should we dismiss the accounts of the ancient peoples because they never used computers or have a snazzy cell-phone?

 

Are you implying that the ancient people were sharing a mass delusion of a great flood?

 

There is no doubt floods occur, the problem im having is dating some of them.

 

There seems to be physical aswell as oral evidence supporting a "smaller" flood around 7-8000 b.c.

 

As for you comment on hollow earth i would have to say it was an ignorant low blow for i mentioned nothing of the sort.

 

Many people fear the expanding earth theory because it makes silly of all their lifes work. It is tough to look like a fool after decades.

 

But everyone is entitled to their "own" "beliefs"

 

Heres a video pertaining to the Expanding earth theory.

( copy + Paste)

youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ

10 minutes, very compelling.

[Godspeed2012]

Hard to believe that people call the floods, myths.

[Hill]

How would you explain the height of the glaciers at the south pole averaging around 2700 meters above sea level?

 

Not only that, but should we dismiss the accounts of the ancient peoples because they never used computers or have a snazzy cell-phone?

 

Are you implying that the ancient people were sharing a mass delusion of a great flood?

 

There is no doubt floods occur, the problem im having is dating some of them.

 

There seems to be physical as well as oral evidence supporting a "smaller" flood around 7-8000 b.c.

 

As for you comment on hollow earth i would have to say it was an ignorant low blow for i mentioned nothing of the sort.

 

Many people fear the expanding earth theory because it makes silly of all their lifes work. It is tough to look like a fool after decades.

 

But everyone is entitled to their "own" "beliefs"

 

Heres a video pertaining to the Expanding earth theory.

( copy + Paste)

youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ

10 minutes, very compelling.

 

"How would you explain the height of the glaciers at the south pole averaging around 2700 meters above sea level?"

 

Climate of Antarctica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

1) It is also extremely dry, with an average of only 166 mm of precipitation per year; however, on most parts of the continent the snow never melts and is eventually compressed to become the glacial ice that makes up the ice sheet. Weather fronts rarely penetrate far into the continent.

 

2)It has been covered with ice since approximately the beginning of the Pliocene, about 5 million years ago.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/Dgv-surfbal.gif

So even if the snow accumulation is only, say 2cm/year that means... .02 meters x 5 000 000 = 100 kilometers

 

...most of it lost due to wind erosion and glacial flow.

 

3) Vostok core interpretation based on methane and other trapped atmospheric component gases.

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_methane_age.txt

 

"should we dismiss the accounts of the ancient peoples because they never used computers or have a snazzy cell-phone?"

 

No, but accounts were almost entirely, or entirely verbal accounts passed down from one generation to another by cultures who had no true understanding of the causes of what they experienced. Many accounts were tales passed down as myths in an attempt to explain the origins of their culture.

 

"There is no doubt floods occur, the problem im having is dating some of them.

There seems to be physical aswell as oral evidence supporting a "smaller" flood around 7-8000 b.c."

 

Read about the flooding of the Black Sea and Robert Ballard's investigations.

National Geographic: Noah’s Flood/Black Sea Expedition

 

Lots of links here - no point redoing a good explanation.

Hardware Analysis - Re: The frailty of human life, when nature takes its toll

 

"As for you comment on hollow earth i would have to say it was an ignorant low blow for i mentioned nothing of the sort."

But I did.:shrug: If you are going to expand the Earth as proposed in that video, maybe one way to do it is for it to be hollow and to be inflated like a large rock balloon.

Whatever you are proposing needs to have more evidence than a well made animation. Where is the hard data? Where are the discussions based upon a systematic look at the evidence, or lack of it?

 

"Many people fear the expanding earth theory because it makes silly of all their lifes work. It is tough to look like a fool after decades."

 

No true scientist would stick to the present theory ( remember in scientific parlance 'theory' does not mean another position, but a tested and proven collection of data all pointing to a conclusion) if evidence from many different areas - physical geology, physics, math, paleontology, etc - pointed to better evidence for a revised theory, or even replacement of a theory. The thing about science is that it searches for the explanation with the most solid evidence. Sometimes the change in a theory happens quickly, but most often it happens incrementally. Some times a piece is missing ( see Evidence Supporting Continental Drift ) for the story of a man who collected lots of evidence to support his theory. But it wasn't until WW II and the development of sonar that mid oceanic ridges were discovered. The evidence collected since then supports continental drift powered by mid oceanic lava upwelling and ocean basin subduction. The theory of inflatable planets has no evidence.

 

"everyone is entitled to their "own" "beliefs" '

 

Definitely true but belief does not equal diligent research which is supported by other research and which survives attempts to prove it false.

 

Finally note that S. Warren Carey's Expanding earth theory was developed in the 1950's and early 60's before proof of subduction was gained and when continental drift, waiting for that final bit of evidence, was just beginning to be taken seriously. Scientific knowledge has passed him by.

[Godspeed2012]

Thank you for the reply :shrug:

 

I will work on a short reply.

[Cedars]

 

Not only that, but should we dismiss the accounts of the ancient peoples because they never used computers or have a snazzy cell-phone?

 

Are you implying that the ancient people were sharing a mass delusion of a great flood?

 

There is no doubt floods occur, the problem im having is dating some of them.

 

There seems to be physical aswell as oral evidence supporting a "smaller" flood around 7-8000 b.c.

 

Many people fear the expanding earth theory because it makes silly of all their lifes work. It is tough to look like a fool after decades.

 

But everyone is entitled to their "own" "beliefs"

 

Heres a video pertaining to the Expanding earth theory.

 

From space.com:

Estimates vary, but the USGS says at least 1,000 million grams, or roughly 1,000 tons of material enters the atmosphere every year and makes its way to Earths surface.

 

So yes, the earth is accumulating some mass (expanding) even to this day. That does not alter the theories regarding plate tectonics.

 

As far as ancient peoples World wide flood myths, it is based on their comprehension of what the whole world was at the time. Even if their maths predicted the size of the earth accurately, they had no knowledge of the events, such as whether or not flooding occurred on the opposite side of the globe during their own deluge. Basically they have no proof that their world wide flood was actually world wide. That was an assumption/perception by the observers (and storytellers later) as the oral histories were passed along to the next generation.

 

If your complaint is about science not taking lore seriously, I will agree that in many periods of time, folklore was dismissed at hand (what do the native know that we care about?), or greeted with skeptical disbelief. But not everyone dismissed it and many embarked on explorations of their myths (fountains of youth, alchemy, etc) to an undesired ending.

 

As far as dating them, there have been multiple floods in the area being discussed in this thread.

 

From the USDA RLUA documentation on Region B Area 8:

 

A wide expanse of scablands in the eastern portion of this MLRA, in Washington, was deeply dissected about 16,000 years ago, when an ice dam that formed ancient glacial Lake Missoula was breached several times, creating catastrophic floods.

 

From the USDA RLUA documentation on Region B Area 7:

 

This basin generally corresponds to the vast temporary lakes created by floodwaters from glacial Lakes Missoula and Columbia. Most of the fluvial and lacustrine sediments were deposited about 16,000 years ago, when an ice dam on the ancient Columbia River burst and when glacial Lake Missoula periodically emptied, creating catastrophic floods.

 

So it is agreed that flooding occurred in this area, but it wasnt one singular flood that created what we see today in this landscape, it is described in plural form, coinciding with the retreat of the glaciers ending the latest ice age.

 

As far as the video, very little is known about the geology of the ocean floor compared to what we know of the geology of the grand canyon. Logistics hinder our exploration of this matter greatly, so to conclude that the ocean floor is x-amount of years old therefore plate tectonics is false is a bit of a leap, in my opinion anyways.

[Godspeed2012]

Just compiled this video to answer some questions and pose new ones here.

 

Just something to be seen

YouTube - Proof of Many Great Global Floods - Amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4UN8At-UBI

 

The difficult time to have is dating the various epochs and floods.

 

The hopi were told to retreat to Black Mesa at the 4 corners at Colorado,Nm,AZ,Utah. They called it Turtle Island Curiously that is the land to last submerge and 1st to appear. They said it was flooded in 4 days. Wow.

 

Explains how they beem finding prehistoric animals with a shocked expression and food in their mouths.

[Turtle]

...

The difficult time to have is dating the various epochs and floods.

 

The hopi were told to retreat to Black Mesa at the 4 corners at Colorado,Nm,AZ,Utah. They called it Turtle Island Curiously that is the land to last submerge and 1st to appear. They said it was flooded in 4 days. Wow.

 

Explains how they beem finding prehistoric animals with a shocked expression and food in their mouths.

 

This post has virtually nothing to do with the topic of this thread, the Missoula floods, whose age, mechanism, and extent are well enough documented to show they were local to the Pacific Northwest.

 

Who told the Hopi & when? Translated to you by whom? Not written where? By what unrecognized evidence/authority? [rhetorical: do not respond here]

 

The Missoula floods have nothing to do with explaining anything about prehistoric animals found with food in their mouths, let alone a 'shocked expression'. This fanciful speculation belongs in Strange Claims, not in this thread.

[Godspeed2012]

Scientists at one point believed the earth was flat. That changed.

 

for some......

[Cedars]

Just compiled this video to answer some questions and pose new ones here.

 

Just something to be seen

YouTube - Proof of Many Great Global Floods - Amazing

 

The difficult time to have is dating the various epochs and floods.

 

The hopi were told to retreat to Black Mesa at the 4 corners at Colorado,Nm,AZ,Utah. They called it Turtle Island Curiously that is the land to last submerge and 1st to appear. They said it was flooded in 4 days. Wow.

 

Explains how they beem finding prehistoric animals with a shocked expression and food in their mouths.

 

The video neither answers questions, nor poses new ones regarding floods in various parts of the world. It seems to be nothing more than a creative (read imagined) display of what a fictional world wide flood event would look like in this modern landscape. I have to call it fictional for I have no reason to believe you researched the math and calculated how much the seas would rise in the event that the ice caps both melted totally at the same time (or do you have another source for all the water?)

 

As far as a difficulty dating floods, is your 'difficulty' regarding the fact that different floods your aware of have been dated and tend to fall outside of your beliefs that there was one giant flood that covered the earth as a global event?

 

Finding prehistoric animals with food in their mouths?

A quick google on Frozen mammoths will provide you with the facts.

 

CC361.2: Quick-frozen mammoths

 

The above is a good example of why oral (and plenty of written) information should be checked out for basis in fact.

[Hill]

Scientists at one point believed the earth was flat. That changed.

 

for some......

 

This thread has drifted way off topic.

[Turtle]

...

Turtle mentions living on top of the Missoula Flood deposits, but I haven't found much about their origin here as I searched for previous posts. ...

 

There is also a show running on the Missoula floods on one of the cable TV science channels. They go onsite to outline the history of the geology work employed to explain the many unusual formations and deposits.

 

Speaking of Missoula flood deposits and turtle's that live on top of them, I have picked a few rocks out from my yard to scan. Note the variety & roundedness. I think the one on bottom with the round imprints is a fossil.

 

[Hill]

T

 

Speaking of Missoula flood deposits and turtle's that live on top of them, I have picked a few rocks out from my yard to scan. Note the variety & roundedness. I think the one on bottom with the round imprints is a fossil.

 

 

I wonder is it is a well worn piece of fossil coral.

 

http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/Palaeofiles/Fossilgroups/anthozoa/rugosa.html

[freeztar]

Or possibly a rock that once hosted barnacles and/or limpets. The white "residue" on the rocks gives me that suspicion.

[Turtle]

I wonder is it is a well worn piece of fossil coral.

 

Or possibly a rock that once hosted barnacles and/or limpets. The white "residue" on the rocks gives me that suspicion.

 

I will make a high-res scan and BRB to post it. Thanks guys. I can't turn a potting shovel here without these stones comprising ~60% by volume the material scooped. I often set aside the more intersting stones by putting them in my plant pots. [The stones help shade the soil in the pots, they help retain moisture, and they help prevent washing out the soil when watering. ]

 

It is also possible these are not fossils or casts, but mineral crusts formed in hydrothermal circumstance and then weathered. :hihi:

 

Addendum: (I remembered the scale!!! :shrug:)