[Michaelangelica]

Moontanman said:

That's some wild stuff Michael, is there any reason these things are dismissed and not acknowledged by modern science?

They probably haven't bothered, or caught up with the research yet.

Without intending to, with 30 mins WWW research, i think I have made a good case for trade goods moving between Egypt and South America.
If that doggy site is correct all that is needed is some artifacts and they say they have those.

[michaelhoffman]

Maybe there was cocaine and tobacco growing in the middle east or asia but it died out or became illegal so they stopped growing it. I think it's ridiculous to say that the ancient people could not cross over to the Americas. Just because no "sea ferrying" boats from the Egyptians exist doesn't mean some one else like the Phoenicians couldn't have done it.

Honestly, i think there could be a cover up. History has decided that Columbus discovered America and they want to keep it that way. Most people who have looked into the subject probably know that the Vikings reached America in 1000AD and the Knights Templars probably came before Columbus. Also some argue that Columbus could have been associated with the Templars due to the ships sails being white with a red cross on them. Also where he came from has a history of the Templars.




dsi

[Michaelangelica]

[quote][quote name='michaelhoffman']Maybe there was cocaine and tobacco growing in the middle east or asia but it died out or became illegal so they stopped growing it.[/quote]
Nicotine and similar alkaloids in anumber of plants including ones grown in Africa and Australia. It is highly likely these were used for their medicinal effects as our bodies have nicotine receptors.
Cocaine however is only found in the Cocao bush to my knowledge

[quote]Honestly, i think there could be a cover up.[/quote]
I don't think so . I just think science is very slow to change an established theory.
Perhaps it takes a younger generation of history bulls to bury the oldies, sticking to their outdated theories.

[Michaelangelica]

Scientific Evidence for Pre-Columbian Transoceanic Voyages to and from the Americas, part 1 John L. Sorenson Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute
http://maxwellinstit...scripts/?id=154

http://www.sino-plat...ian_voyages.pdf

[Moontanman]

Michaelangelica, on 06 July 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

Scientific Evidence for Pre-Columbian Transoceanic Voyages to and from the Americas, part 1 John L. Sorenson Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute
http://maxwellinstit...scripts/?id=154

http://www.sino-plat...ian_voyages.pdf

If it wasn't for the rather glaring.... bullshit, and it's association with the Mormon religion I might be more likely to be excited about other parts of it. The idea that cacti and banana's alone were in the new world before Columbus or really before Europeans took them either to or from the new world is just not true. Cacti are not not native to the old world and were not found there until they were taken there by Europeans, many of the other plants are highly suspect but i have not read about them recently but many are either pretty much global in distribution or simply were not shared before Europeans came to the new world. The Mormon religion asserts that the lost tribe of Israel was "lost" in the new world and Native Americans are descended from the lost tribe of Israel, they have been shown to be guilty of "salting" the data many times because of their religious ideas and I suspect this is one of those times. It's sad they have muddied the waters so badly in the past, i think there was some interaction between the old and new world in antiquity but i think we can be pretty sure it was not the way Mormons claim.

[Michaelangelica]

Thanks
Moontanman sad about the religious agenda.

This was interesting and well argued
Special Paper: The Dispersal of the Coconut: Did ItFloat or Was It Carried to Panama?

R. Gerard Ward and Muriel Brookfield

Journal of Biogeography

Vol. 19, No. 5 (Sep., 1992), pp. 467-480


This a bit flakey but??
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2741739
Pre-Columbian Old World Coins in America: An Examination of the Evidence [and Comments and Reply]Jeremiah F. Epstein, Donal B. Buchanan, T. V. Buttrey, George F. Carter, Warren L. Cook, Cyclone Covey, Stephen C. Jett, Thomas A. Lee, Jr., Balaji Mundkur, Allison C. Paulsen, Hanns J. Prem, Jonathan E. Reyman, Miguel Rivera Dorado and Norman TottenCurrent Anthropology
Vol. 21, No. 1 (Feb., 1980), pp. 1-20
(article consists of 20 pages)Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological ResearchStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2741739

[Moontanman]

Michaelangelica, on 11 July 2011 - 08:03 AM, said:

Thanks
Moontanman sad about the religious agenda.

This was interesting and well argued
Special Paper: The Dispersal of the Coconut: Did ItFloat or Was It Carried to Panama?

R. Gerard Ward and Muriel Brookfield

Journal of Biogeography

Vol. 19, No. 5 (Sep., 1992), pp. 467-480


This a bit flakey but??
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2741739
Pre-Columbian Old World Coins in America: An Examination of the Evidence [and Comments and Reply]Jeremiah F. Epstein, Donal B. Buchanan, T. V. Buttrey, George F. Carter, Warren L. Cook, Cyclone Covey, Stephen C. Jett, Thomas A. Lee, Jr., Balaji Mundkur, Allison C. Paulsen, Hanns J. Prem, Jonathan E. Reyman, Miguel Rivera Dorado and Norman TottenCurrent Anthropology
Vol. 21, No. 1 (Feb., 1980), pp. 1-20
(article consists of 20 pages)Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological ResearchStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2741739

I'm not sure how difficult it would have been for Romans to get here as opposed to say Phoenicians, but as your link said the evidence for it is very weak. Of course there is "Dr." Knet Hovind who says that not only were Roman swords found in the americas but they had depections of dinosuars carved on them.... can any one saw male bovine excrement?

Quote

Abstract
Does the occasional find of a Roman, Greek, or Hebrew coin in America indicate ancient transoceanic contact? In this study, 40 reports of such coins are analyzed in order to determine whether any can support the diffusionist position. Discovery dates, minting periods, geographical distribution, and the absence of prehistoric context all suggest that the coins were lost very recently. For those who argue that coins found in fields and farmyards may have special significance, an examination of counterfeits reveals that frauds and their prototypes have similar distributions. The data indicate also that Roman coins are far from rare in the United States today and that they are lost frequently. A number of well-publiced claims are given careful scrutiny and in all cases found to be highly suspect if not downright fraudulent. It is concluded, therefore, that as of this writing no single report of a classical-period coin in America can be used as evidence of pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic contact

[Turtle]

Moontanman, on 11 July 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

I'm not sure how difficult it would have been for Romans to get here as opposed to say Phoenicians, but as your link said the evidence for it is very weak. ...

i know i mentioned this before and i thought it was in this thread but we must have another somewhere on the topic. anyways, for what it's worth here's some business on this business of romans in the americas.

Romans In Brazil During The Second Third Century?

robert marx said:

Ex-marine and underwater explorer/archaeologist/treasure-hunter Robert Marx states rather flatly:

Amongst my most notable discover[ies] was that of a 2nd century BC Roman shipwreck in the Bay of Guanabara, near Rio de Janeiro. This is a discovery that has received little to no examination, much less validation, from the realm of mainstream archaeology, no doubt in part because Marx is not a Ph.D. archaeologist. Scouring the web for more information about this finding, I did find a reference to the discovery in an article from Dr. Elizabeth Lyding Will, an expert on Roman amphoras (clay vessels used to store and ship goods during the Roman era). Dr. Will apparently has a piece of an amphora recovered from Marx's Brazil discovery. Of it, she says:

The highly publicized amphoras Robert Marx found in the ship are in fact similar in shape to jars produced in kilns at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco. The Rio jars look to be late versions of those jars, perhaps datable to the third century A.D. I have a large piece of one of the Rio jars, but no labs I have consulted have any clay similar in composition. So the edges of the earth for Rome, beyond India and Scotland and eastern Europe, remain shrouded in mystery. Information about this find is practically non existent. Gary Fretz's synopsis of the "whole story" suggests that the find has been suppressed by the Brazilian government:

At the time the amphorae were confirmed to be "Roman", the large Italian faction in Brazil were extremely excited about this news. The Italian ambassador to Brazil notified the Brazilian government that, since the Romans were the first to "discover" Brazil, then all Italian immigrants should be granted immediate citizenship. There are a large number of Italian immigrants in Brazil and the government has created a tedious and costly citizenship application procedure for Italians that does not apply to Portuguese immigrants. The Brazilian government would not give in and the Italians in Brazil staged demonstrations. In response, the Brazilian government ordered all civilians off the recovery project and censored further news about the wreck hoping to diffuse the civil unrest. Finally, I've also seen mention of the following written works, which I've yet to dig up: Marx R.F., 1984 , Romans in Rio? [see Santarelli A. Mondo Sommerso 270 1983:252-3. Oceans, 17.4: 18-21.] The Romans in Rio book (?) is not among the works of Robert Marx as listed at Amazon. ...

from a link @ the previous link:

Tiny Roman Bust Shows Pre-Columbian Contact With Mexico

andrew collins said:

It was the Max Planck Institute for Nuclear Physics in Heidelberg, Germany, who conducted the tests which determined the age of the bust. Afterwards art experts were more willing to accept that it was of Roman manufacture. Hristow who then checked original excavation reports and realised that the bust must have been buried at least nine years before the arrival in Mexico of Hernando Cortés in 1519.

Yet this realisation begs the real question of whether or not Roman explorers were making journeys to the Americas around AD 200.Betty Meggers, an anthropologist at the National Museum of Natural History in Washington DC, has stated that: `I see no reason why ancient contact is not possible'.(4) She herself has made an extensive study of the similarities between the prehistoric pottery of the Joman culture of Japan and the Valdivia culture of Ecuador. This she believes is evidence of transpacific contact with the Americas as early as 3000 BC.