[Thunderbird]

Seems to me these types of phenomenon, along with barred galaxies, could be explained by multiple centers, as in multiple black holes.

[LaurieAG]

coldcreation said:

Check this out LaurieAG,

Galaxy's spiral arms point in opposite directions

Here is the article from NewScientist.com news service.



How does this fit in with your hypothesis?


CC

Hi CC,

I suppose if there can be lag that allows the consolidation of multiple rotations over time (that look like a cyclone/spiral galaxy) then there shouldn't be any reason why the opposite wouldn't occur (as per my first light path galaxy image).

Also, that's one thing about a rotating photon/solar system (you can verify this by spinning a sparkler, or even your finger in the air) that has always got me, if it goes away rotating in a clockwise direction, won't it appear to rotate anti clockwise when viewed from the opposite direction? Surely if you see the second view you aren't really seing anything 'anti' at all, you are just seeing the front view of the same thing coming towards you instead of the back view going away.

BTW, the latest New Scientist magazine had an article on time travel and wormholes based on a closed time like loop CTLL with a hole in it (The feedback loop would actually go around the universe and back except the (infinite) rest of the physical trip has been cut through electronics). I can assure you that while I was generating the images posted earlier with the feedback version of a CTTL, I witnessed no time travel either forwards or backwards and I didn't catch a glimpse of any parallel universes through the halo.

That leads me to the biggest question (and a good indicator to where Kurt Godel got his 'time travel' equations wrong) is there any inkling of a proof that there exists a Closed Time Like Loop that rules the universe? The answer is no never because they can only occur in isolation.

[LaurieAG]

Hi All,

If our universe was dominated by a closed time like loop then we should have crossover points as shown in the image U1.

WR104 star a deadly ray gun | Herald Sun

Also WR104 is remarkably like the galaxy light path image in my first post, especially as it consists of time lapse images over 6 years.

While the newspaper article(s) may be sensational and over the top, if the object was moving towards the observer at a reasonably fast speed there might be a real cause for concern in a few million years or so.

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[ArnieB]

peter, on 14 January 2008 - 05:36 PM, said:

Hi; Guys,
Today I saw two totally unrelated pictures: one is a spiral galaxy and the other is a hurricane; they are so similar (see the attached pictures below)which make me think that they should share (to some extent) similar mechanism of formation. I am not a cosmologist nor a Meteorologist. I know that the formation of a hurricane involves completely fluid mechanism, how about a spiral galaxy? Is it possible that the cosmological fluid or other fluid-like matter is involved the formation of the spiral galaxies? They both rotate and have an eye in the center and spiral arms. Just for curiosity, could be silly.

Hey Peter
Not silly at all. Processes in nature do not look identical coincidentally. They must be related, even if popular scientific theory doesn't know why yet (something they HATE admitting).
The gravitational model has trouble accounting for galaxy formation and structure.
Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfven (the guy who explained the aurora borealis phenomenon) has demonstrated in the lab that plasma physics and electromagnetism account for galaxy formation and structure. (See attached image, and google him) The idea isn't popular. I'm sure you know the great inertia of the scientific world. It takes tremendous force to divert their thinking from popular theory. But the images speak for themselves.

The question is: why do we not study the electromagnetic components of hurricanes? After all, we do live on a spinning geo-magnet with conductive oceans and ionosphere. Perhaps low pressure cells are just the facilitator: rising moisture-laden air containing charged particles results in current flow. But, whatever the details are, the engine appears to be electromagnetic.

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[lawcat]

Yes they do. They have centrifugal force in common. In other words, they rotate. Good observation.

[CraigD]

peter, on 14 January 2008 - 05:36 PM, said:

Today I saw two totally unrelated pictures: one is a spiral galaxy and the other is a hurricane; they are so similar (see the attached pictures below)which make me think that they should share (to some extent) similar mechanism of formation.

ArnieB, on 12 March 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

Hey Peter
Not silly at all. Processes in nature do not look identical coincidentally. They must be related, even if popular scientific theory doesn't know why yet (something they HATE admitting).

lawcat, on 12 March 2011 - 08:45 AM, said:

Yes they do. They have centrifugal force in common. In other words, they rotate. Good observation.

A very important – an undisputed – collection of data about spiral galaxies is that the motion of most of the individual stars in a galaxy don’t follow its visible spiral, but rather fairly eccentric elliptical paths around its center of mass.

Thus, despite the similar appearance when imaged from a distance of a spiral galaxy and a hurricane, the visible elements of them – stars in the case of the galaxy, clouds in the hurricane – move very differently. (see the wikipedia article density wave theory for more information) The perception that stars in a spiral galaxy move like clouds in a hurricane is due to an perceptual illusion somewhat similar to those that causes us to perceive faces in clouds.

Contrary to Arnie’s claim some processes in nature do look identical coincidentally. Because images of two different objects look similar via our human sensory-perceptual systems doesn’t mean they must be related.

ArnieB, on 12 March 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

The gravitational model has trouble accounting for galaxy formation and structure.
Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfven (the guy who explained the aurora borealis phenomenon) has demonstrated in the lab that plasma physics and electromagnetism account for galaxy formation and structure.

It’s certainly true that the formation of arrangement of galaxies, stars within galaxies, and even planets around stars, are difficult to explain with even the best present-day theory and modeling techniques. These techniques have, however, been at least moderately successful, and do include plasma physics an electromagnetism. Troublingly, they are also forced to include large undetected masses, known as dark matter. Physically explaining the presence or lack of dark matter remains one of the great challenges of present-day cosmology.

In the 1960 and 70s, before the availability of computers capable of the kind of high-resolution modeling vital in present-day astrophysics, Alfven and others’ developed of a family of alternative theories, usually called plasma cosmologies in which the role of plasma and electromagnetic effects are hypothesized to be significant at much greater scale than accepted by the scientific mainstream (in conventional theory and models, these effects are significant on the scale of forming star-planet systems). These theories have not, however, been supported by modeling using computers available in the 1980s through today, so by about 1990, were largely discredited and discarded.

The continued popularity of plasma cosmology among a small number of researchers, most of them specialists in plasma physics on small (less than 0.1 m) scales, and amateur scientist “independent researchers” (some of whom are better known than professional scientists proponents of plasma cosmology, because while amateur scientists, they are proficient professional book writers and bloggers), appears to me to be mostly because it is one of the few reasonable and easily understandable models that support stead state cosmology. Stead state cosmologies, IMHO, remain popular because they avoid the philosophical difficulties of creation ex nihilo that arise from the dominant Big Bang cosmological model.

So plasma cosmology is better understood, I think, as a sub-theory of steady state cosmology, not a stand-alone alternative to the convention, gravity-dominated models of the structure and formation of galaxies and their arrangement in the universe.

Quote

The idea [of plasma cosmology] isn't popular. I'm sure you know the great inertia of the scientific world. It takes tremendous force to divert their thinking from popular theory. But the images speak for themselves.

The present day scientific disfavor of steady state theories is, I think, evidence that the scientific consensus, while it may have “great inertia”, does eventually change. The return to dominance of a steady state theory, including or not a plasma cosmology, would be a return to a very old, long dominant scientific consensus, which I believe was motivated more by intuitive assumption than scientific evidence.

Quote

But the images speak for themselves.

This idea – that intuitive impression formed by simply looking at pictures – is IMHO a very bad and pervasive one, responsible for much of the worst pseudoscience existent.

Human visual perception excels at recognizing similarities between objects. While critical to the success of our species, this predisposes us to experiencing perceptual illusions, such as concluding that a galaxy is like a hurricane. Methodically studying an understanding science is, in my experience, the best way to overcome such false perceptions.

[coldcreation]

CraigD, on 13 March 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

This idea – that intuitive impression formed by simply looking at pictures – is IMHO a very bad and pervasive one, responsible for much of the worst pseudoscience existent.

Human visual perception excels at recognizing similarities between objects. While critical to the success of our species, this predisposes us to experiencing perceptual illusions, such as concluding that a galaxy is like a hurricane.

This is kind of similar too Why Japan's Tsunami Triggered an Enormous Whirlpool

"Whirlpools have a big impact on the human imagination," Ludwin said...

cc

[LaurieAG]

Hi CC,

coldcreation, on 13 March 2011 - 11:34 AM, said:

"Whirlpools have a big impact on the human imagination," Ludwin said...

And black holes, whether they be natural or financial share similar characteristics to the formation of hurricanes and maelstroms.

I think it was Edgar Allan Poe who wrote a short story called the Maelstrom. He gave a good shot at explaining the geographic setup and the tidal changes that caused the maelstrom to form and described the things being drawn down and ground to a pulp by the boulders before being spat out by the change in tide. I'm not sure if it was this story or another that told of 2 men going down into a maelstrom, the one who grabbed the barrel was lighter and didn't get sucked in before the tide change while the other who stayed with the ship went down quicker and was pulped.

IMHO the worst psuedoscience these days is using spacetime to model a universe because spacetime is what happens in discrete 3D space+time locations, duh.

[granpa]

http://en.wikipedia....ity_wave_theory

[coldcreation]

granpa, on 14 March 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ity_wave_theory

Here's a nice simulation.

Notice how the trajectory of stars predicted by density wave theory move in and out of the spiral arms as they orbit the galaxy, allowing the existence of stable spiral arms.






cc

[LaurieAG]

Hi CC,

coldcreation, on 14 March 2011 - 11:45 PM, said:

Notice how the trajectory of stars predicted by density wave theory move in and out of the spiral arms as they orbit the galaxy, allowing the existence of stable spiral arms.[/CENTER]

The only problem with all these theories is that I have never seen an astronomical observation that only showed half of a spiral galaxy.

To me that indicates spiral galaxies can only be 'seen' when the observers field of view is wider than the 'galaxy' itself.

[coldcreation]

Hi LaurieG,

LaurieAG, on 14 March 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

Hi CC,

And black holes, whether they be natural or financial share similar characteristics to the formation of hurricanes and maelstroms.

I would say "financial" . Indeed black holes sell allot of books.

LaurieAG, on 14 March 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

I think it was Edgar Allan Poe who wrote a short story called the Maelstrom. He gave a good shot at explaining the geographic setup and the tidal changes that caused the maelstrom to form and described the things being drawn down and ground to a pulp by the boulders before being spat out by the change in tide. I'm not sure if it was this story or another that told of 2 men going down into a maelstrom, the one who grabbed the barrel was lighter and didn't get sucked in before the tide change while the other who stayed with the ship went down quicker and was pulped.

Edgar Allan Poe, in “Heureka” (1848) described creation as an “instantaneous flash.”

The writings of Poe can be found in several cosmology textbooks (Heurica!)

LaurieAG, on 14 March 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

IMHO the worst psuedoscience these days is using spacetime to model a universe because spacetime is what happens in discrete 3D space+time locations, duh.

Here I would have to disagree with you.



cc

[Time_Travel]

No matter what some people say that Golden Ratio(1.618 or 0.618) occurring as a pure coincidence and compare them to common straight lines and circles etc etc, Golden ratio is here to stay in an extraordinary fashion. Even Human Body displays Golden Ratio characteristics. Even the mass psychology of people i.e the stock markets displays golden ratio turning points.

As for why the Hurricane and Galaxy look similar is because of the very Fractal nature of Nature itself. Whatever happens at the smallest scale will repeat at the largest scale and vice versa because of fractal nature.

[dduckwessel]

CraigD, on 13 March 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

Contrary to Arnie’s claim some processes in nature do look identical coincidentally. Because images of two different objects look similar via our human sensory-perceptual systems doesn’t mean they must be related.

Then there's human fingerprints and the crown of hair on our heads (you can only see the spiral shape when the hair is really short). Obviously blood is flowing in a circular motion underneath the scalp to cause the hair to grown in that pattern! My son has a galaxy shape on his chest where the hair grows in that pattern, again obviously the blood is flowing in a circular motion underneath.

Therefore, wherever we see this same galaxy shape, we can deduce there's some force moving in a circular motion underneath to cause that formation!

[Turtle]

dduckwessel, on 13 April 2011 - 07:01 AM, said:

Then there's human fingerprints and the crown of hair on our heads (you can only see the spiral shape when the hair is really short). Obviously blood is flowing in a circular motion underneath the scalp to cause the hair to grown in that pattern! My son has a galaxy shape on his chest where the hair grows in that pattern, again obviously the blood is flowing in a circular motion underneath.

Therefore, wherever we see this same galaxy shape, we can deduce there's some force moving in a circular motion underneath to cause that formation!

poppycock.