[Racoon]

I'm a pretty open minded guy, for the most part I think.
I can see and sense trends, and can discern through a lot of print and occurence.

But over the last couple years, I've come to the personal opinion that I don't like Islam very much.

Now, that may sound bad at first, but let me say I don't go out of my way to assault any Muslim physically, or personally berrate them. No sense in that.

But I've done a bit of reading, watched a lot of Docu's, and seen alot of things for my short stay here on Earth.

And as soon as I say 'Islam kinda' sucks', you get the whole Political Correctness -You're-full-of-hatred-bit.

Well, Why does Islam suck?

Because they treat women like dirt.
Their laws are too severely strict.
Almost anything offends them.
Theres NO tolerance for anything other than Islam itself.
and then the radical terrorist bit to boot.

The counter argument becomes, "Well, you know knothing about Islam, its amazingly complex with many fasits, and the terrorists are giving it a bad rap"

Really?

Then whats so great about it? Can someone explain the beauty of it?

In Malaysia, they're banning non-muslims from saying Allah, as its offensive to them.
In the United States they're filing lawsuits left and right to ban Christmas and Halloween, and anything else they can get ACLU lawyers to 'protect' them from being offended.
In Europe they're being a menace. Basically expecting themselves to NOT have to assimilate Western culture.
In Arab countries they're extremely intollerant of anything outside of Islam.

Of course I'm not labeling ALL Muslims and followers of their faith as unruly or difficult. Thats absurd.

But what am I missing?
Can anyone enlighten me?
Or am I to be a 'bigot'?

[Buffy]

Given the makeup of this community, its probably not a great place to get any real answers to this question...

But my own view is that most of what you dislike has nothing to do with Islam, but rather with the cultures that have it as their primary religion.

Many feminists argue that Islam is far more supportive of women than Christian beliefs, but that the in-grained patriarchal societies have suppressed it.

The KKK was a pretty effective Christian terrorist organization until reason suppressed it. Who knows, maybe with the proper approach, today's terrorists who use Islam as their "excuse" will be suppressed soon as well.

By attacking Islam in this way of course, you do nothing but allow those who disagree with you to call you a bigot, and we all lose out because the basic *problems* you point out--which are perfectly valid--*never* get addressed!

Define your goals better, take better aim, and then try again.

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake,
Buffy

[modest]

I find the things I do not like about Islam are generally the things I don’t like about most religions. One of the founding principles upon which Islam is based is the recognition that Judaism and Christianity were perverted in the time of Muhammad. Islam is then meant to fix the other two Abrahamic religions in effect claiming it is the only interpretation of the Bible. I don’t like that. Of course, I could say the same thing about Christianity.

I will not list them here. But, I find some versus in the Qur'an objectionable. Some are offensive, tempting violence, exclusive, or just wrong (based on false logic). Of course, I could again claim the same about other religious texts, namely, Christian.

I don’t see any inherent problem with the five pillars of Islam. They seem to be a statement of faith that don’t cause any harm (unless you count those accidentally crushed or burned to death in their pilgrimage at Mecca).

I think my main objection is not so much one of ‘Islam the religion’ as ‘Islam the state’. When there is no distinction between state and church (as is the case in many Islamic republics) there seems to be a multitude of problems. Women subjugated. Minorities disenfranchised. People getting executed for ridiculous things. The root of these problems (I think) can be traced back to Islamic law and in particular the lack of distinction between it and secular law.

I would consider this a problem with the state more than with the religion. The same problems occur in instances where Christian law is the law of the land (i.e. the Salem witch trials of the puritan culture). It is probably true that anytime religion is too seriously intertwined with governing bad things happen. There are examples of this very far removed from Christianity and Islam. The Aztecs believed their ruler was divine. In addition to being the governor and military leader he was high priest and descended from the gods. They took sacrificing human life to a whole other level and there was no secular voice to stop them. There are many other examples.

So - my main objection to a country like Iran (or any other Islamic republic) is not their religion which I find no more distasteful than most others, but is their state sponsorship of that religion.

-modest

Buffy said:

But my own view is that most of what you dislike has nothing to do with Islam, but rather with the cultures that have it as their primary religion.

Looks like you and I were thinking the same thing at the same time

-modest

[Racoon]

Buffy said:

But my own view is that most of what you dislike has nothing to do with Islam, but rather with the cultures that have it as their primary religion.


Many feminists argue that Islam is far more supportive of women than Christian beliefs, but that the in-grained patriarchal societies have suppressed it.

Buffy

It seems to me that these 'Cultures' are such, because of Islam. Much like the Puritanical culture of early America.


How would you discern the actual difference?


Islam "more" supportive of women??.. You can't be serious? (according to some women you know/ other feminists of course)

More to follow....

[Buffy]

Racoon said:

It seems to me that these 'Cultures' are such, because of Islam. Much like the Puritanical culture of early America.


How would you discern the actual difference?

By actually reading the book, silly!

Have you bothered?

The Bible is full of crap about women being subservient to men, something that the Fundamentalists point to constantly as an excuse to try to keep us all "barefoot and pregnant." OTOH, the Koran is full of rules that give women equal rights to men, which are *contradicted* by the "laws" that are in the "interpretations" of the Wahab's and the Shi'ites that are *not* part of the Koran.

That's how you tell!

Facts are stupid things,
Buffy

[Boerseun]

I don't like Islam because they don't have a sense of humour. Neither does fundamentalist Christians. Or Jews, for that matter. Just look at what King David done to the locals when he came back to Israel after a 400-year absence. No humour, that one.

But then again. Unfortunately, my exposure to Islam is mostly to the bad, dark side of it - the terrorists on TV, etv. I'm not exposed at all to any of the good and fair (the vast, vast majority) of Muslims out there. They're simply not newsworthy enough. And, I fear, neither have you got any exposure to them.

So, instead of saying "I don't like Islam", I'd rather say "I don't like the part of Islam getting all the 8 o'clock TV News coverage".

Same as I don't like religious freaks and nutjobs of any creed, colour, flavour or kind.

[Mike C]

To All:

Islam is a byproduct of the bible.
It promotes the 'one god concept' as the bible does.
It promotes woman as sinners (male subjugation).
Accusing them as bigots is just a reflection of what they are..
Their cleansing by torture and decapitation is an example of their savagery.

On the other hand, I can say that they do send their matyrs to heaven at 'light speed' by having them blow themselves up, instead of suffering them for about 3 hours as the popes recommend.

Also those prayer rituals in the Mosques make me think they are thanking satan for all the riches (oil) they get from down below.

Mike C

[Cedars]

Racoon said:

Of course I'm not labeling ALL Muslims and followers of their faith as unruly or difficult. Thats absurd.

But what am I missing?
Can anyone enlighten me?
Or am I to be a 'bigot'?

Buffy said:

Many feminists argue that Islam is far more supportive of women than Christian beliefs, but that the
in-grained patriarchal societies have suppressed it.

The KKK was a pretty effective Christian terrorist organization until reason suppressed it.

Modest said:

I think my main objection is not so much one of ‘Islam the religion’ as ‘Islam the state’. When there is no distinction
between state and church (as is the case in many Islamic republics) there seems to be a multitude of problems. Women
subjugated. Minorities disenfranchised. People getting executed for ridiculous things. The root of these problems (I
think) can be traced back to Islamic law and in particular the lack of distinction between it and secular law.

I ran across an interesting paper on Afghanistan. I think alot of it can be applied to much of where islam is the dominant religion, or any place women are still regarded as property/subjective to the men:

"Tribal laws and sanctions have routinely taken precedence over Islamic and constitutional laws in deciding gender roles, especially through kinship hierarchies in the rural regions. Tribal power plays, institutions of honor, and inter-tribal shows of patriarchal control have put women’s position in jeopardy. Tribal laws view marriages as alliances between groups; women are pawned into marriages and not allowed to divorce, total obedience to the husband and his family is expected, and women are prevented from getting any education."

http://www.bridgew.e...Afghanistan.pdf

You would be just as 'bigoted' against an america that deprived women of a vote. Or girls of an education. Or the freedom to become a muslim/christian/hindu/atheist/etc under penalty of law (or even death). Or any of a host of things we see penalized as an affront to islam:

Rape case brings Saudi laws into focus - Mideast/N. Africa - MSNBC.com

Afghanistan: Journalist Given Death Sentence For 'Blasphemy' - RADIO FREE EUROPE / RADIO LIBERTY

[freeztar]

Mike C said:

To All:

Islam is a byproduct of the bible.
It promotes the 'one god concept' as the bible does.
It promotes woman as sinners (male subjugation).
Accusing them as bigots is just a reflection of what they are..
Their cleansing by torture and decapitation is an example of their savagery.

On the other hand, I can say that they do send their matyrs to heaven at 'light speed' by having them blow themselves up, instead of suffering them for about 3 hours as the popes recommend.

Also those prayer rituals in the Mosques make me think they are thanking satan for all the riches (oil) they get from down below.

Mike C

Mike, it sounds like you're saying that everyone who believes in Islam "blows themselves up" and "cleanses by torture and decapitation".
I don't think you meant that, correct?

[Mike C]

freeztar said:

Mike, it sounds like you're saying that everyone who believes in Islam "blows themselves up" and "cleanses by torture and decapitation".
I don't think you meant that, correct?

Well, you are right.
I do not blame the people because they are just 'followers',
This is just true in most any system or policy.

Whenever I criticize something, it is generaly the top motivating leadership.

Although in Islam, the leadership is the mulas(?) or whatever you call them,
I think they do not really oppose the AlQuada since they may agree that they may be acting in the interests of their religion.

But I still feel that, that religion, is the most evil in our world today except the former Russian communist regime that has now disbanded.

Mike C

[Racoon]

TheReligionofPeace - The Top 10 Reasons Why Islam is NOT a Religion of Peace

[Copyrighted Hate Speech Removed]

[Mike C]

Racoon said:

[Copyrighted Hate Speech Removed]

Well, the evil spirit in Muhammad was in his name when you codense it to
MAD.
Looks like the 'bible' made him do it.

Mike C

[Racoon]

I think the Europeans are starting to have second thoughts about Muslims as well.
And why not?



Daily Express: The World's Greatest Newspaper :: News / Showbiz :: Europeans think Islam is dangerous:

Quote

AN “overwhelming majority” of Europeans believe immigration from Islamic countries is a threat to their traditional way of life, a survey revealed last night.

The poll, carried out across 21 countries, found “widespread anti-immigration sentiment”, but warned Europe’s Muslim population will treble in the next 17 years.


It reported “a severe deficit of trust is found between the Western and Muslim communities”, with most people wanting less interaction with the Muslim world.


Last night an MP warned it showed that political leaders in Britain who preach the benefits of unlimited immigration were dangerously out of touch with the public.


The study, whose authors include the former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey, was commissioned for leaders at the World Economic Forum meeting in Davos, Switzerland.


It reports “a growing fear among Europeans of a perceived Islamic threat to their cultural identities, driven in part by immigration from predominantly Muslim nations”.

[rockytriton]

I read a lot of books about islam and watched documentaries about islam, I'm not one for getting second hand information though, so I decided to read the Koran.

If islam is truly supposed to be just based off of the koran, then it should be a peaceful religion, but the culture of that civilization has taken it over and corrupted it. Really in the koran, it mainly talks about 4 main things. 1) loving god. 2) how awesome and great god is. 3) fire & brimstone for your eternal soul if you don't believe. 4) distrust others who don't believe.

There's not all of this hatred that I see, at least not that's any different from the hatred and intolerance taught in the bible.

At any rate, it's all rubbish anyway.

[Cedars]

Racoon said:

Daily Express: The World's Greatest Newspaper :: News / Showbiz :: Europeans think Islam is dangerous: [link removed at member request due to disturbing image on target page: If you're really interested you can search for it]

They must have used a different picture when this was posted because the picture is now former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey.