[Thunderbird]

Last night PBS aired a Frontline documentary on Mormonism's {LDS} history and beliefs, and I must say it does not resemble the usual tenants of Christianity that I am familiar with.
Helping the poor
forgiveness

They also believe American Indians are the lost tribe Israel.



What do you think?

[Buffy]

Thunderbird said:

What do you think?

I think this is troll-bait.

Either you think the word "cult" has positive connotations, or you're not-so-subtlety demeaning Mormonism.

Watch your step!

I don't hate people, I just feel better when they aren't around,
Buffy

[Thunderbird]

Buffy said:

I think this is troll-bait.

Either you think the word "cult" has positive connotations, or you're not-so-subtlety demeaning Mormonism.

Watch your step!

I don't hate people, I just feel better when they aren't around,
Buffy

If PBS frontline seems to think this is a worthy of disscusion why not this forum.
This is the reason I bring this up now, Did you watch the documentry.

[Thunderbird]

Buffy said:

I think this is troll-bait.

Either you think the word "cult" has positive connotations, or you're not-so-subtlety demeaning Mormonism.

Watch your step!

I don't hate people, I just feel better when they aren't around,
Buffy

Cult

Quote

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
The followers of such a religion or sect.
A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
The object of such devotion.

This definition pretty well describes what I saw last night.

[Buffy]

Thunderbird said:

If PBS frontline seems to think this is a worthy of disscusion why not this forum.

The general *topic* is perfectly fine. The word "cult" however is your own: it does not appear anywhere on the pages on pbs.org promoting the show.

So are you claiming that the word "cult" has no pejorative connotations?

It would be disingenuous, however, not to point out that some things are considered as morally certain, that is, as having sufficient certainty for application to ordinary life, even though they may be uncertain in relation to the absolute power of God,
Buffy

[Thunderbird]

Buffy said:

The general *topic* is perfectly fine. The word "cult" however is your own: it does not appear anywhere on the pages on pbs.org promoting the show.

So are you claiming that the word "cult" has no pejorative connotations?

:
Buffy

The only connotations besides the one I gave is the common one of "A religion younger than 500 years" in other words it is and cannot be easily defined, thus the question posed here. Keep in mind the other major Christian religions do not recognize LDS as a true Christian Religion and Mormonism does not recognize any other Christian group, but consider them as apostate. That in mind what do you suppose their official Classification of this group.

[Buffy]

Well, maybe we should start by defining "pejorative."

dictionary.com said:

pe·jo·ra·tive –adjective
1. having a disparaging, derogatory, or belittling effect or force

The words I've bolded below qualify as such:

Thunderbird said:

Cult

Quote

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
...
Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

Extremist? False? Obsessive? Do you claim you would have no negative reaction if others used those words to describe you?

Thunderbird said:

The only connotations besides the one I gave is the common one of "A religion younger than 500 years" in other words it is and cannot be easily defined, thus the question posed here.

...and that's one of the main qualities of a pejorative term: its an ill-defined epithet most often used to disparage those you disagree with.

If you want to try to clinically define "cult," why limit this discussion to Mormonism?

Note that I'm not saying that this kind of discussion is out of bounds, but you may wish to be a little bit more formal and objective than you've been so far in this thread, without resorting to definitions that actually do your argument more harm than good.

Thunderbird said:

Keep in mind the other major Christian religions do not recognize LDS as a true Christian Religion and Mormonism does not recognize any other Christian group, but consider them as apostate. That in mind what do you suppose their official Classification of this group.

How is this different than any other minority faith? How is this different than past rifts between Catholics and Protestants or Sunni's and Shi'a? Sure Sunni's call Shi'a a "cult" but it is indeed an epithet, and you're not likely to get very far with a topic like "Is Shi'a Islam a Cult?" either...

Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart,
Buffy

[Thunderbird]

Buffy said:

Extremist? False? Obsessive? Do you claim you would have no negative reaction if others used those words to describe you?
...and that's one of the main qualities of a pejorative term: its an ill-defined epithet most often used to disparage those you disagree with.

If you want to try to clinically define "cult," why limit this discussion to Mormonism?


Buffy

These words your using can describe many religions, but my concern is do these religions victimize the followers. I believe this is a distinction that can be made here on what is a cult and what is a chosen religion.

Quote

"Members who question, doubt, or dissent with the group's beliefs are discouraged or punished."

"The group uses techniques that numb the mind to suppress doubts about the group and its leaders. These include long work routines, denunciation sessions, meditating, chanting, or speaking in tongues."

"The group's leaders tell members how they should act, think, and feel. For example, members must get their love life and jobs okayed. Leaders may tell them what kind of clothes to wear, where to live, how to raise their children, etc."

"The group sees itself as especially and uniquely blessed; for example, the leader is believed to be a Messiah or avatar, or the leader and the group have special orders to save the world."

"The group has an us-versus-them outlook, which puts it in conflict with mainstream culture."

"The group's leaders are accountable only to themselves and are not guided by or disciplined by any higher authorities as are, for example, military officers, and the ministers, priests, and rabbis of mainstream religions. The group believes its goals justify methods that members would have considered unethical before joining, such as raising money for fake charities."

"The leaders manipulate the members into feeling guilty in order to maintain control."

"Because members become subservient to the group, they cut ties to friends, families and the personal goals and activities they had before joining."

"The group expects its members to devote inordinate amounts of time to it."

"The group encourages or requires its members to live or socialize only with each other."

[Thunderbird]

Double post

[Pyrotex]

Thunderbird said:

These words your using can describe many religions, but my concern is do these religions victimize the followers. I believe this is a distinction that can be made here on what is a cult and what is a chosen religion.

The bottom lines are these:
This is a Science website.
This is a privately owned and strictly moderated website.
You have been asked very politely to behave yourself.
You are obviously trying to get "as close to the line" as you can without crossing over it--at least, not with your whole foot.
We are under no obligation to prove anything to you or to accept your personal definitions.

[Thunderbird]

Pyrotex said:

The bottom lines are these:
This is a Science website.
This is a privately owned and strictly moderated website.
You have been asked very politely to behave yourself.
You are obviously trying to get "as close to the line" as you can without crossing over it--at least, not with your whole foot.
We are under no obligation to prove anything to you or to accept your personal definitions.

That's understood, if you could show to me what in this post is causing you and buffy a problem and how it is differs from this post.

http://hypography.co...like-islam.html

What line is it exactly, this would be helpful.

I did not say "Why I don't like Mormons" I merely wanted to take a poll.

[freeztar]

Look at it this way TB, this thread is on page 2 and no useful discussion has been generated. Why do you think that is?

Why not ask the question without the word "cult"? IOW, "Are Mormons Christians?".

[Turtle]

Thunderbird said:

Last night PBS aired a Frontline documentary on Mormonism's {LDS} history and beliefs, and I must say it does not resemble the usual tenants of Christianity that I am familiar with.
Helping the poor
forgiveness

They also believe American Indians are the lost tribe Israel.



What do you think?

I was tuned in when the show started, but I'm now sorry to say I didn't stay tuned. Anyway, Romney carefully said a few weeks ago in characterization of himself as a Morman, that he was a believer in Jesus Christ the Lord, or words to that effect.

I consider Mormanism a Christian cult. We have this earlier discussion on the topic, but brought forward in the Social Sciences forum; it may add something to this discussion. >> http://hypography.co...ghlight=Mormons

[Thunderbird]

freeztar said:

Look at it this way TB, this thread is on page 2 and no useful discussion has been generated. Why do you think that is?

Why not ask the question without the word "cult"? IOW, "Are Mormons Christians?".

Ok I see your point.

[CraigD]

Thunderbird said:

What do you think [about Mormonism]?

Mormonism is, IMHO, an interesting religion.

I don’t consider it to currently by a cult by the criteria Thunderbird gave in post #4, because the large majority of Mormons don’t live in an unconventional manner under an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

The LDS church is about as hierarchal as many other major religions, with an authority structure similar to the Roman Catholics church, though numerically dissimilar. Both have a supreme human authority –Mormons a First President, Catholics a Pope – who is considered infallible, and remains in the office until death. Both have bodies that elect a new supreme authorities upon the death of the old – Mormons the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles consisting (unsurprisingly) of 12, Catholics the College of Cardinals consisting of a variable number of members, currently around 180. Both require the supreme leader to appoint/elevate people to the supreme-leader-electing body. Both have lots of lesser authorities who technically must obey the higher authorities, but in practical actuality can disagree, disobey, and quarrel with them, and lots of ordinary religionists who technically must obey various authorities, but in practical actuality do or don’t as their individual dispositions dictate.

Mythological, Mormonism seems to me very unlike the Abrahamic religious of Judeaism, Christianity, and Islam. It’s similarities to these religions include revelatory theism – they all profess to document truth delivered directly from one or more supernatural beings via one or a few special “prophets”. It’s many dissimilarities include the idea that unborn souls have a supernatural origin (“pre-mortal existence”), and that the souls of present day human beings may someday become gods, and create their own worlds. Mormonism is not, however, truly polytheistic, in that it believe our present world to be ruled over by a single deity (and arguably a female companion, occasionally termed “Mrs God”)

Mormons believe in what some term the akashic record, a repository of all knowledge, including the future, which implies belief in predestination. Mormons believe that an excerpt of this record, in the form of golden plates, were found around 1823 by Joseph Smith, under the guidance of a supernatural being, and translated with the aid of supernatural objects into an early version of the present-day Book of Mormon.

Thunderbird said:

Last night PBS aired a Frontline documentary on Mormonism's {LDS} history and beliefs, and I must say it does not resemble the usual tenants of Christianity that I am familiar with.

Like many other churches, the LDS church is associated with many small organizations and communities claiming affiliation with it that it disavows due to their extreme views and practices, even though some of these views and practices were once accepted by the chuch. In the case of the LDS church, many of these communities practice forced child marriage and polygamy, which has landed them afoul not only the church, but various courts and law enforcement agencies. Although I’m not familiar with the program of which Thunderbird writes, I suspect that it documented some of these groups.

My personal experience with Mormons consists in most part of my experience between the age of 17 and 18 with a Mormon school roommate, his family, and several Mormons friends around our age (including a few “bad” young Mormons who used drugs and alcohol and engaged in premarital sex). Despite my ravenous (if age-appropriate) appetite for premarital sex, they seemed to like me because I was athletic and not a habitual drug/alcohol user. My roommate and his family were great fun, having a house on Lake Powell, a boat, SCUBA equipment, all of which they graciously shared with me on a vacation visit with them.