[Kriminal99]

In some communist countries, people's intelligence and any natural abilities are measured, and they are assigned occupations accordingly. Since occupations are based on this, and pay as well, there is no motive for people to try hard in their jobs. The economy as a whole suffers. Everyone suffers.

But a perfect capitalism might have a similar effect. Such an environment would entail free flow of information. Because of this, business owners would realize how much their companies would suffer in efficiency by allowing mangers to play favorites in assigning responsibilities. Meritocracy would be the standard in every place of employment, and ways to implement this would be successfully developed and put into place.

Those that had the intelligence would rise up through the ranks, and those that did not would simply not be able to provide the results. According to the G factor, they probably would not be able to provide the results anywhere as well as the more intelligent people.

So in such a cold and heartless place, where no one cared how many years you put in, would the system collapse as fast as a communist economy?

I believe it would not. I believe that in such a society, the flynn effective of increasing iq's between generations would skyrocket. I believe that people would always push the limits of their intelligence.

[Moontanman]

If you want to see a pure Capitalist society about the closest you will see are the ones where the rich Capitalists work the average citizen until they die, from tiny children to the Adults who are not much more than slaves to the rich and powerful, they slowly grind down everyone and citizens are having huge numbers of children knowing that most will die in the mines or sweat shops....

If you want to see a pure Communist society about the closest you will see are the ones where the rich Party Elite work the average citizen until they die, from tiny children to the Adults who are not much more than slaves to the Party Elite and powerful Communists, they slowly grind down everyone and citizens try having huge numbers of children knowing that most will die in the mines or sweat shops....


6 of one, a half dozen of the other

[Michaelangelica]

Quote

Those that had the intelligence would rise up through the ranks,

I am not sure intelligence is selected for in any system
People who get ahead have the right parents, the right contacts, the right old-school tie, the right socio-economic group, and lots of luck.
Look at Bush for example Did he get to the highest post in the land on intelligence? I think not.
You may have a far too romantic view of the world

[Vox]

Michaelangelica said:

I am not sure intelligence is selected for in any system
People who get ahead have the right parents, the right contacts, the right old-school tie, the right socio-economic group, and lots of luck.
Look at Bush for example Did he get to the highest post in the land on intelligence? I think not.
You may have a far too romantic view of the world

If you comprehend that all these "..ism´s" or religions are man made games then you also understand that there are certain goals within the game which "all" should target and appreciate. Most of the people never challenge/ comprehend fully these goals and rules and take them as they life´s purpose and act accordingly , very seriously, concerning the came and it´s rules..even willing to kill if the game rules requires..Whatever "ism game" is dominant in " your neck of the woods"..you should play it ..or do you think that you have a choice not to ? Thinking outside of any "ism game" or religion if that is dominant game can be very dangerous to individual..?

Mind is a tool , use it to see through the man made games

[Michaelangelica]

Has China Inc. perfected Communism or Capitalism?

[Vox]

Michaelangelica said:

Has China Inc. perfected Communism or Capitalism?

Excellent question, this could shake many foundations if the have "successfully" melted these 2 seemingly separate "ism games" together..

[Donk]

All the different flavours of communism, whatever their stated aims, quite rapidly turned into the normal human form of government: a "star group" which owns everything, including the people.

The same can also be said of theocracy, feudalism, monarchy, dictatorship... we're a tribal species and we can't seem to manage without the chieftain class.

The United States tried to get out of the trap by creating a constitution that put strict limits on what the government was allowed to do to its people, watched over by a judiciary that had the power to tell the government to go to hell. A noble aim, and one which worked quite successfully for a couple of centuries, but it seems to be going the way of all the other Utopias we've tried - a star group which owns everything, including the people.

Pity

[Vox]

Donk said:

The United States tried to get out of the trap by creating a constitution that put strict limits on what the government was allowed to do to its people, watched over by a judiciary that had the power to tell the government to go to hell. A noble aim, and one which worked quite successfully for a couple of centuries, but it seems to be going the way of all the other Utopias we've tried - a star group which owns everything, including the people. Pity

Quote

We have the best government that money can buy.
.Mark Twain

[maikeru]

Michaelangelica said:

Has China Inc. perfected Communism or Capitalism?

By perfecting neither, it has mastered them both.

[maikeru]

Moontanman said:

If you want to see a pure Capitalist society about the closest you will see are the ones where the rich Capitalists work the average citizen until they die, from tiny children to the Adults who are not much more than slaves to the rich and powerful, they slowly grind down everyone and citizens are having huge numbers of children knowing that most will die in the mines or sweat shops....

If you want to see a pure Communist society about the closest you will see are the ones where the rich Party Elite work the average citizen until they die, from tiny children to the Adults who are not much more than slaves to the Party Elite and powerful Communists, they slowly grind down everyone and citizens try having huge numbers of children knowing that most will die in the mines or sweat shops....


6 of one, a half dozen of the other

Two ideologies, two sides of the same coin.

[Michaelangelica]

Kriminal99 said:

In some communist countries, people's intelligence and any natural abilities are measured, and they are assigned occupations accordingly.. . .

Those that had the intelligence would rise up through the ranks, and those that did not would simply not be able to provide the results. According to the G factor, they probably would not be able to provide the results anywhere as well as the more intelligent people.

So in such a cold and heartless place, where no one cared how many years you put in, would the system collapse as fast as a communist economy?

I believe it would not. I believe that in such a society, the flynn effective of increasing iq's between generations would skyrocket. I believe that people would always push the limits of their intelligence.

I think this thread is showing a lot of illogical, sloganeering thinking. and making wild assumptions that are unproven.

At the moment it seems The USA system is failing the Chinese system (whatever that is) is achieving its aims of unlimited growth.
China's economy has been growing at double digit rate for a long while and will soon surpass the USA, which it practically owns.

It seems whenever a Yank starts to talk about political systems the conversation all seems to get silly and simplistic. Is this because of their political education/brainwashing?

[Boerseun]

Whilst China's success is mostly thanks to a vastly and artificially undervalued currency, it's perceived success at manufacturing stuff at a fraction of its actual cost is draining manufacturing capacity from the West at one hell of a rate - and has very little bearing on reality. If Chinese workers were paid in a realistically valued currency with a comparable minimum wage to that paid in the West with all the social benefits, I doubt that China will be any more or less competitive in the international marketplace than any other country you'd care to mention. Go to any store any buy any manufactured product and count how many items do not say "Made in China" on the back - the product of a completely artificial competitive edge based for all practical purposes on slavery and exploited labor.

One day, though, reality will bite China in the ass, and the West will be royally screwed in that its manufacturing capability will be insufficient to fill the void left by Chinese products which are not on the shelves anymore because the Chinese workers have realized that they, too, have rights, and have taken on their government in vast displays of industrial action, massive strikes, etc.

Fact is that both systems when taken to the extreme will result in human suffering and misery in general. Capitalism is only possible as long as poverty exist. There is no way after all to be defined as "rich" if there are no poor people to be measured against. Sad, but true. If everybody had a million bucks, a quarterpounder and cheese will cost thousands because the guy flipping the burgers won't work for peanuts any more - he's got a few million of his own, after all. Minimum wage won't do it for him. So wages will have to rise dramatically, resulting in much more expensive burgers, effectively wiping out the value of the million bucks the burger flipper has until it becomes worthwhile for him to flip burgers again. A re-adjustment will have to be made in order to re-establish poverty, so that the rich can be rich again, and the poor can be poor. Without poverty, capitalism simply cannot work.

The trick is that everybody should have the same opportunity and the same access to learning and there should be no nepotism or favoritism in the workplace. Then, the possibility of rising out of the ranks of the poor and join the ranks of the rich is entirely up to the individual making the most of his abilities. And with all its failures (including favoritism and nepotism), that is only possible through Capitalism, and not Communism.

Hence I would venture to say that Capitalism might be a soulless, exploiting enterprise, but compared to the other economic systems, is probably the lesser evil.

[Vox]

Boerseun said:

Hence I would venture to say that Capitalism might be a soulless, exploiting enterprise, but compared to the other economic systems, is probably the lesser evil.

Any studies available how many mentally healthy human beings have been the leaders of the country´s, historically and now ?

Joseph Stalin Quotes

[clapstyx]

"According to the G factor, they probably would not be able to provide the results anywhere as well as the more intelligent people"

OK so maybe the intelligent ones should set out to reach a point of resolve that enables people to get their bearings on the situation well enough to think more intelligently? For myself just personally I would love to live in a society where I didnt encounter stupidity or perhaps to put that in another way "encounter situations where I felt there had been a shortfall in thinking (relative to a well thought out conceptual ultimate that factored in as near to possible the full scale of potential consideration on multiple tangents of logic and reason so that it made sense more than one way more completely)

[Vox]

clapstyx said:

For myself just personally I would love to live in a society where I didnt encounter stupidity or perhaps to put that in another way "encounter situations where I felt there had been a shortfall in thinking (relative to a well thought out conceptual ultimate that factored in as near to possible the full scale of potential consideration on multiple tangents of logic and reason so that it made sense more than one way more completely)

So you assume that you would naturally belong to that intelligent society where you would not encounter stupidity, but if you would find to be not intelligent enough , would you still support the approach and live outside of that intelligent society? As long there is thinking there is stupidity..I am living proof of that.