[dduckwessel]

http://www.religiond...g_to_new_study/

According to some studies, born-again Christians have smaller brains and although it's disputed I tend to agree with the studies. The reason I agree is because born-again (Evangelical) Christians tend to be very rigid in their belief system, most are not learning anything new (non-creative). Of course I'm speculating but it makes sense to me that if the neurons in their brains are firing on the same paths continually, due to being fed the same information over and over, that will affect intellect.

[JMJones0424]

The editorial you linked to takes the opposite position as you, and it fails to give a source for the study in question. I question the validity of the study, but cannot construct an educated opinion without a source. Do you have any sources for your claims?

[Jorge1907]

Think the post says muxh more about the bias of dduckwessel that any group's or anyone's brain size.

[pamela]

dduckwessel, on 13 August 2011 - 08:11 AM, said:

http://www.religiond...g_to_new_study/

According to some studies, born-again Christians have smaller brains and although it's disputed I tend to agree with the studies. The reason I agree is because born-again (Evangelical) Christians tend to be very rigid in their belief system, most are not learning anything new (non-creative). Of course I'm speculating but it makes sense to me that if the neurons in their brains are firing on the same paths continually, due to being fed the same information over and over, that will affect intellect.

'What exactly do you mean about affecting intellect? If I constantly feed mathematical information into my brain, how does that affect my intellect? How does anyone not learn anything new? I find that very odd as I believe that the day you stop learning is the day you cease to exist. Are you specifically saying the size of the brain or the number of the neural pathways being utilised?

[dduckwessel]

pamela, on 15 August 2011 - 06:47 AM, said:

'What exactly do you mean about affecting intellect? If I constantly feed mathematical information into my brain, how does that affect my intellect? How does anyone not learn anything new? I find that very odd as I believe that the day you stop learning is the day you cease to exist. Are you specifically saying the size of the brain or the number of the neural pathways being utilised?

Mathematical information makes you think, which exercises the brain. Born-again people are taught to let others do their thinking for them so it stands to reason they will lose intelligence over time.

The following says it better:
http://www.usatoday....rain24_ST_N.htm

I thought it was interesting and I believe that studies such at this will stop the regression of learning that is happening in these circles, which is a real problem.

[Moontanman]

I guess sperm whales must be intellectual giants....

[dduckwessel]

Apparently sperm whales are very intelligent but these particular studies are about a certain group and the studies definitely suggest a deterioration of intelligence in born-again people.

I'm not trying to be nasty but I'm excited to see actual studies on the subject.

It's not any different from what many on this forum have been suggesting. Perhaps I'm reading it all wrong but the studies seem to be viewed with some suspicion!

[JMJones0424]

dduckwessel, on 25 August 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:

...the studies definitely suggest a deterioration of intelligence in born-again people.

Please, take the time to at least read the abstract of the study in question rather than repeating editorials as if they are fact.

Search PLoS ONE for "Amy Owen" led me to

http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0017006

Quote

This study examined prospective relationships between religious factors and hippocampal volume change using high-resolution MRI data of a sample of 268 older adults...Significantly greater hippocampal atrophy was observed for participants reporting a life-changing religious experience. Significantly greater hippocampal atrophy was also observed from baseline to final assessment among born-again Protestants, Catholics, and those with no religious affiliation, compared with Protestants not identifying as born-again. These associations were not explained by psychosocial or demographic factors, or baseline cerebral volume.

And then, the third paragraph of the Discussion section-

Quote

Greater hippocampal atrophy was observed longitudinally in this study among born-again Protestants, Catholics, and those reporting no religious affiliation, compared with non born-again Protestants. These findings may reflect potential cumulative stress associated with being a member of a religious minority. Though religious factors have been associated with positive mental health, studies have shown members of religious minority groups may also experience stressors related to these group affiliations. Greater hippocampal atrophy was also found to be longitudinally associated with reported life-changing religious experiences. Spiritual experiences not easily interpreted within an existing cognitive framework or set of religious beliefs have been shown in previous research to be detrimental to subjective well-being. Such experiences have the capacity to produce doubts regarding previously unquestioned convictions, potentially inducing cumulative stress even if the experience was subjectively positive. If the experience prompts a change in religious groups, existing social networks may also be disrupted. Thus, as possible sources of cumulative stress, both minority religious group membership and life-changing religious experiences may contribute to conditions that are deleterious for hippocampal volume.

Small study, inconclusive findings, and certainly does not "definitely suggest a deterioration of intelligence in born-again people."

This post has been edited by JMJones0424: 25 August 2011 - 02:27 PM

[dduckwessel]

I think that if you were personally involved with them you would most definitely see a decline in critical thinking in born-again people (and other stringent religious groups) and to a lesser degree, Catholics as they are the most open to science.

Studies such as those I mentioned here are only a beginning but I'm glad that science is taking an interest in the subject. Obviously there are 'stressors' involved.

It will be interesting to see what further studies reveal.

[Jorge1907]

Your bias is obvious in your inaccurate interpretation duckwessels - or you didn't read and understand the article.
The study looked at older adults (>/= 58) and found a difference in those claiming life changing religious experiences - did not observe effects in the frequency of public and private religious practices. The cautioned at the small sample size and geographic focus of those claiming the life chaning religions expeiecnes.Your biased interpretation stumbles over the obvious - coincidence is not cause. They point out that similar atrophic changes are seen in older adults with depression and dementia. It is likely that such atrophy (and hippocampus was cited as associated with religions experiences) ontributed to folks' claiming life-changing religious experiences (not an unreasonable manifestation of some dementia)- not the reverse. But the study did not makea cause and effect determination either way.

[CraigD]

dduckwessel, on 13 August 2011 - 08:11 AM, said:

http://www.religiond...g_to_new_study/

According to some studies, born-again Christians have smaller brains and although it's disputed I tend to agree with the studies. The reason I agree is because born-again (Evangelical) Christians tend to be very rigid in their belief system, most are not learning anything new (non-creative). Of course I'm speculating but it makes sense to me that if the neurons in their brains are firing on the same paths continually, due to being fed the same information over and over, that will affect intellect.

It’s important, I think, to distinguish between activities that affect the gross anatomy of the brain, such as the size of its various regions and components, and those that affect intellect. Brain anatomy is objectively measurable data. (Since the introduction of x-ray CT in the 1970s, this data is fairly easy to get – prior to that, it was difficult and dangerous to get much from living patients, and possible to get fairly complete data only by dissecting the brains of cadavers) Intellect, on the other hand, is a quality assigned to people based on subjective assessments by others.

As the article you link explains, dduck, that studies relating brain mass to religious belief are not credible. Consider that brain mass is most directly related to head size (except for people with certain terrible diseases, the brain essentially fills the skull’s cranial cavity), and head size to height, claims such as “born again Christians have smaller brains” can be equated to “the average height of born again Christians is less than the average for all people”, which I believe most people would find a silly assertion.

What I think many people find plausible is that mental behaviors such as religion may result in changes in brain anatomy, some areas growing, some shrinking. Thanks to the ease with which brains can now be imaged, there are a several good studies that show that what and how we think can have such an effect, especially Eleanor Maguire et all’s 2006 London Taxi Drivers and Bus Drivers: A Structural MRI and Neuropsychological Analysis, which showed significant differences in the size and shape of hippocampi (a part of the brain known to be important in spatial navigation) due apparently to having acquired extensive knowledge about how to drive to specific street addresses and named places in London. (sources: the paper, a BBC news article summarizing it )

Though I’m aware of fMRI studies showing distinct brain activity with mental behaviors associated with religion, such as praying, I can’t recall one showing anatomical changes. Perhaps someone can find one – or one refuting this hypothesis – and post it in this thread?