[phillip1882]

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i've tried very hard to believe, that there is a God, that there is someone out there watching over everything taking care of everything. But the more i look around the harder i find it to believe. war, poverty, disease, death, and the ice capades; these are not good works. these do not belong on a resume of a supreme being.
-george carlin

question #1: how do you love an invisible incorpeal being?
no matter how you slice it, God is inexcessible to us. yes you can pray to him, but that's not love. yes you can do things in his name, but agian, that's not love. in order to love something you need a real physical interaction. loving God is the equivalent of a child loving his imaginary friend.
question #2: do aliens need to believe?
acording to the bible we are basically born unworthy of God's love. the only way to redeem ourselves is through faith in christ. this however fails badly when you consider the fact that the chinese had no knowledge of any of the events in the bible prior to chirstian misionaries bringing them the message only roughly 600 years ago. did every chinese prior to that go to hell?
the universe is extrodanarly huge, at least 30 billion light years across. there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies in the known universe. do aliens need to believe in jesus in order to be saved?
question #3: what makes you think God is love?
chirstians proclaim that, outside the bible, there is no reason to believe that God is love. it'd go one step futher, and proclaim that from within the bible as well there's no reason to believe this. God commands blind respect and obediance. his punishments for not doing so can range from murder to eternal torment. that seems more like the qualifications of a malevolant tyrant than a loving father figure.

[Hawkins]

phillip1882, on 07 September 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

question #1: how do you love an invisible incorpeal being?
no matter how you slice it, God is inexcessible to us. yes you can pray to him, but that's not love. yes you can do things in his name, but agian, that's not love. in order to love something you need a real physical interaction. loving God is the equivalent of a child loving his imaginary friend.
question #2: do aliens need to believe?

How do you know that God is inaccessible to us? The Bible says that He keeps contacting His witnesses, such that they can write a book called Bible for other to believe with faith. Love is about perception, it is quite a personal feeling. You don't do empircal scienfic research of love, do you? So how do you know that others won't perceive love from God? Moreover, there are roughly 1/3 humans beings believe in Jesus and I do think that the majority of them might feel His love. Perhaps it is you who is an issue when you treat 1/3 humans as 'abnormal'.

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acording to the bible we are basically born unworthy of God's love. the only way to redeem ourselves is through faith in christ. this however fails badly when you consider the fact that the chinese had no knowledge of any of the events in the bible prior to chirstian misionaries bringing them the message only roughly 600 years ago. did every chinese prior to that go to hell?

You need to admit that a human mind is limited. The problem may be in how you comprehended what is said in the Bible instead of a problem of the Christianity. Fairness is built on Law, faith in Jesus is a Grace. If you look for fairness, you need to go back to Law. Law is where the fairness is for everyone. Grace on the other hand, is like a gift. You can grant a gift to whoever you want. God made a sacrifice, while men get a gift for free. The Second Covenant brought us by Jesus Christ is a Grace/gift. He has all the right to grant it to whoever He likes. Yet it's fair enough that everyone who ever heard of the gospel can choose to get this gift. As for the ancient Chinese (or anyone who never heard of the gospel), just get back to His fair Law.

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the universe is extrodanarly huge, at least 30 billion light years across. there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies in the known universe. do aliens need to believe in jesus in order to be saved?

'the universe is so large that there must be aliens' <------ hope that you realize that this is a faith statement. If you assume to soon that they do exist, why not just try to ask them instead of us Christians?

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question #3: what makes you think God is love?
chirstians proclaim that, outside the bible, there is no reason to believe that God is love. it'd go one step futher, and proclaim that from within the bible as well there's no reason to believe this. God commands blind respect and obediance. his punishments for not doing so can range from murder to eternal torment. that seems more like the qualifications of a malevolant tyrant than a loving father figure.

Love is relative to an object, and possibly there is a time frame there too. For example, when you say that you like apples, here apples are the object your liking is expressed. And I bet that you never like rotten apples with worms inside. So you like apples only before they turn rotten. Moreover, a tyrant to the wolves can be an extremely loving Shepherd to the sheep.

[phillip1882]

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How do you know that God is inaccessible to us?

i've never heard a voice in my head that i would attribute to God. nor would any sane individual proclaim such.
i've never seen, touched, smelled or felt him. nor has anyone else to my knowledge, in a way that can be tested.

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Love is about perception, it is quite a personal feeling. You don't do empirical scientific research of love, do you?

err yes you do. do a Google search on scientists research in to the emotion of love.

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So how do you know that others won't perceive love from God? Moreover, there are roughly 1/3 humans beings believe in Jesus and I do think that the majority of them might feel His love. Perhaps it is you who is an issue when you treat 1/3 humans as 'abnormal'.

i treat all human beings the same. it's Christians who think 2/3 of the world its out of whack and need saving.

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You need to admit that a human mind is limited. The problem may be in how you comprehended what is said in the Bible instead of a problem of the Christianity. Fairness is built on Law, faith in Jesus is a Grace.
If you look for fairness, you need to go back to Law. Law is where the fairness is for everyone. Grace on the other hand, is like a gift. You can grant a gift to whoever you want. God made a sacrifice, while men get a gift for free. The Second Covenant brought us by Jesus Christ is a Grace/gift. He has all the right to grant it to whoever He likes. Yet it's fair enough that everyone who ever heard of the gospel can choose to get this gift. As for the ancient Chinese (or anyone who never heard of the gospel), just get back to His fair Law.

okay God's "fair" law is this. you were supposed to be perfect and your not. therefore you need to be punished in some way.
unless you ask for forgiveness. then he might punish you anyway, bu reward you if you keep on believing. battered wife syndrome anyone?

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the universe is so large that there must be aliens' <------ hope that you realize that this is a faith statement. If you assume to soon that they do exist, why not just try to ask them instead of us Christians?

of course i realize that that's part of my point i have at least as much proof in the existence of aliens and christian do in god.

[Rade]

Hawkins, on 13 September 2011 - 08:06 PM, said:

Grace on the other hand, is like a gift.

Not so. When I give someone a clothing gift for birthday, it is not given with any intent that the person I give it to must respond to accept it as a definition of a good response. Perhaps it does not fit, or wrong color, etc. Thus, not accepting a gift presented to any human can also be a good moral action. Humans, unlike God, give a gift because the act of giving in-of-itself is viewed to be something humans value as a good action. But this is not the way of God as relates to Grace.

God demands that humans respond in only one way to Grace for their response to be valued as a good moral action by God. Humans MUST accept the Grace presented by God for their response to be valued by God as being a good response, e.g., reward of eternity in heaven after death. Rejection of Grace is never allowed by God if the end for a human is to be a good result, unlike the act of giving a gift, where both acceptance and rejection can be viewed as morally correct response.

Thus, the Grace of God is no kind of gift to any human. Grace of God is nothing more than a concept of unearned forgiveness invented by humans to justify, and get away with, evading morality in interactions with other humans.

[Deepwater6]

I don't believe in any organised religion, but I do believe there is a higher power. If people pursue Christianty, Judaism, or Islam to get fulfilled what difference should it make to someone who doesn't?

I believe everyone should be able to choose to worship whatever they want, but when they start pushing it on me then I have a problem with it. Likewise when adamant non-believers start pushing their beliefs I get puzzled. Why would either go out of their way or care what the other does if doesn't effect them? Of course extremism is a whole different argument.

I would like to know where Noah put the Beavers, Termites, and Woodpeckers on the ark for all those month's though.

[dduckwessel]

I have no religious affiliation but was some time ago an Evangelical Christian so I think I'm in a good position to comment.

Wars, disease, suffering and aging itself, reveals quite clearly that the Christian God (or God of both the OT and NT) could not have created this reality. If he were the creator of it there would be no suffering of any kind and we would live forever (the consistent need and effort to feed, clothe and house the physical body alone reveals great inferiority).

Certainly the earth is not devoid of good things (at times) but overall it's not a friendly place for many of its inhabitants and the universe itself seems more unfriendly to human habitation.

Bible writings say (and something Christians seem to miss) that another is the creator of this reality (2 Cor. 4:4, 1 John 5:19, John 12:31, John 14:30). If it was created by God, Jesus would not have been killed (John 8:23, John 18:36) but would have been honored instead!

[SaxonViolence]

I will admit that my own relationship to God is rather intellectual.

I believe that God exists. I believe that he makes certain demands of us, but that if we satisfy those demands, we will be rewarded far out of proportion to anything that we've invested.

I believe that--but it is very hard for me to "Feel it".

Yet when I go to church, I see a great many people who are blessed to "Feel" the presence of God far more than I do.

Some people get so happy hearing the word of God that they jump up and down or fall to the floor and roll around. I've seen them run laps around the Sanctuary.

Everyone has heard the story of the little old man (or Arthritic old lady) who jumps up on a pew, and walks along the back as if it were a balance beam. In sone versions, the old man hurdles across the Aisle to continue his walk on the back of the Pew on the other side of the gap.

I sincerely hope that I can get to see that one day.

I have prayed to have manifestations like that.

I fasted and prayed for Four days, to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

I have to be careful about my fasting now,since I'm Diabetic.....

And I haven't been to church in awhile, due to just feeling too bad to get up in the Morning and prepare to go.....

Love God?

Like the one Dude, in the one of the Gospels said, "I believe, help my unbelief".

I often Pray, "God, I love you and respect you, but not nearly so much as I should. Help me to improve."

My father died a decade ago. I have very little doubt that he went to be with Jesus.

My mother Died a few years later.

I should love God for his own sake.....

But I dearly love him because of the Family reunion he makes possible when I die.

There isn't a day that goes by, that I don't look forward to seeing so many of my family and friends again.

A few years ago, I had congestive heart failure. I'd fallen to my knees in a huge parking lot--in a wind-blown sleeting rain.

The cold wind stole my breath away.

I couldn't seem to breath--

And the only two thoughts that I had were: "I wish the pain would stop", and "Soon I'll get to meet Jesus and hug my Father again."

No fear--none.....

Just a very strong anticipation.

We are commanded to Love God, and to Praise him. I suspect that we all fall short on that score to some degree--some more than others--but we're not going to be accepted into Heaven on the Basis of our good works, but by Grace.

Saxon Violence

[sigurdV]

In the beginning religion was an attempt to understand Reality.
But it has devolved into a trap for minds unsure of their part in it.
Get Real and let go of Fantasy

[pamela]

sigurdV, on 12 January 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

In the beginning religion was an attempt to understand Reality.
But it has devolved into a trap for minds unsure of their part in it.
Get Real and let go of Fantasy

Seriously, contribute something relevant to the discussion and stop with the religion bashing. This forum is not set up for preaching nor trashing.

[dduckwessel]

SaxonViolence, on 12 January 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

I will admit that my own relationship to God is rather intellectual.

I believe that God exists. I believe that he makes certain demands of us, but that if we satisfy those demands, we will be rewarded far out of proportion to anything that we've invested.

Isn't that more like fear?

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I believe that--but it is very hard for me to "Feel it".

Yet when I go to church, I see a great many people who are blessed to "Feel" the presence of God far more than I do.

Is it at all possible that they are simply more open to suggestion and let their emotions run rampant?

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Some people get so happy hearing the word of God that they jump up and down or fall to the floor and roll around. I've seen them run laps around the Sanctuary.

I've seen it too but don't you think they just look crazy? Afterall the Bible admonishes people 'not' to do those things. Just because everyone's doing it, doesn't make it right.

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Everyone has heard the story of the little old man (or Arthritic old lady) who jumps up on a pew, and walks along the back as if it were a balance beam. In sone versions, the old man hurdles across the Aisle to continue his walk on the back of the Pew on the other side of the gap.

I sincerely hope that I can get to see that one day.

Hmmm...sounds like my friend that had serious arthritis and went to a healing meeting...the preacher grabbed her and ran around the room and pronounced her healed...she told me that she was hurtin pretty bad the next day and that he had nearly killed her...

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I fasted and prayed for Four days, to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

I have to be careful about my fasting now,since I'm Diabetic.....

Do you really believe that a good God would make you beg for it and possibly cause you to go into a diabetic coma before he would help you?

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And I haven't been to church in awhile, due to just feeling too bad to get up in the Morning and prepare to go.....

I don't want to increase what sounds to me like depression...but honestly you seem to me to be someone that is referred to as 'legalistic' in some religious circles.

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Love God?

Like the one Dude, in the one of the Gospels said, "I believe, help my unbelief".

I often Pray, "God, I love you and respect you, but not nearly so much as I should. Help me to improve."

God would never be demanding but would love you just the way you are. It sounds to me that you do not love yourself.

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My father died a decade ago. I have very little doubt that he went to be with Jesus.

My mother Died a few years later.

I am truly sorry to hear this as you sound very lonely to me. I think you may need help due to depression because of your loss!

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I should love God for his own sake.....

God has big shoulders, we're the ones in need of his love.

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We are commanded to Love God, and to Praise him. I suspect that we all fall short on that score to some degree--some more than others--but we're not going to be accepted into Heaven on the Basis of our good works, but by Grace.
Saxon Violence

Saxon it sounds to me as if you are not under grace, but under 'the works of the law'. Remember that Jesus' yoke is easy and his burden is light.

Is there a hobby you enjoy? I think you need to get around people more and just do fun (but healthy) activities.

[sigurdV]

phillip1882, on 07 September 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

question #1: how do you love an invisible incorpeal being?

question #2: do aliens need to believe?

question #3: what makes you think God is love?

Hi!
If it is ok with you Ill try to answer your questions, but I should point out Im no Christian.

1 By loving Reality and trying to improve on it.
2 Believe what? They really should believe in Reality
3 I dont believe God is love, its a harmless approximation.

[pamela]

ugh tried to edit my post and it deleted

[pamela]

SaxonViolence, on 12 January 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

I will admit that my own relationship to God is rather intellectual.

I believe that God exists. I believe that he makes certain demands of us, but that if we satisfy those demands, we will be rewarded far out of proportion to anything that we've invested.

I believe that--but it is very hard for me to "Feel it".

Yet when I go to church, I see a great many people who are blessed to "Feel" the presence of God far more than I do.

Some people get so happy hearing the word of God that they jump up and down or fall to the floor and roll around. I've seen them run laps around the Sanctuary.

Everyone has heard the story of the little old man (or Arthritic old lady) who jumps up on a pew, and walks along the back as if it were a balance beam. In sone versions, the old man hurdles across the Aisle to continue his walk on the back of the Pew on the other side of the gap.

I sincerely hope that I can get to see that one day.

I have prayed to have manifestations like that.

I fasted and prayed for Four days, to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

I have to be careful about my fasting now,since I'm Diabetic.....

And I haven't been to church in awhile, due to just feeling too bad to get up in the Morning and prepare to go.....

Love God?

Like the one Dude, in the one of the Gospels said, "I believe, help my unbelief".

I often Pray, "God, I love you and respect you, but not nearly so much as I should. Help me to improve."

My father died a decade ago. I have very little doubt that he went to be with Jesus.

My mother Died a few years later.

I should love God for his own sake.....

But I dearly love him because of the Family reunion he makes possible when I die.

There isn't a day that goes by, that I don't look forward to seeing so many of my family and friends again.

A few years ago, I had congestive heart failure. I'd fallen to my knees in a huge parking lot--in a wind-blown sleeting rain.

The cold wind stole my breath away.

I couldn't seem to breath--

And the only two thoughts that I had were: "I wish the pain would stop", and "Soon I'll get to meet Jesus and hug my Father again."

No fear--none.....

Just a very strong anticipation.

We are commanded to Love God, and to Praise him. I suspect that we all fall short on that score to some degree--some more than others--but we're not going to be accepted into Heaven on the Basis of our good works, but by Grace.

Saxon Violence

basically a recap of what took me 30 minutes to type and then subsequently lose-grrr
The Bible states that you should go by faith and not look for some sign from God. It is not your works or fasting that is pleasing to God, but your faith.I sympathise with your loss Sax, but it sounds like you are buying a ticket to see your parents. You should reflect on whether you believe in a god of love or a vindictive one holding a record against you.

[dduckwessel]

Deepwater6, on 21 October 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

I would like to know where Noah put the Beavers, Termites, and Woodpeckers on the ark for all those month's though.

It's an interesting question. One could explain that the ark was covered (inside and out, Gen. 6:14) with pitch (something like tar) to waterproof it. I'm assuming a thick enough layer when hardened would prevent any tampering with the wood!

However, and strangely, the word 'pitch' has these meanings (BlueLetterBible.org):

1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch
a) (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch
1) to cover over, pacify, propitiate
2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
3) to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
c) (Pual)
1) to be covered over
2) to make atonement for
d) (Hithpael) to be covered

price of a life, ransom, bribe
2) asphalt, pitch (as a covering)
3) the henna plant, name of a plant (henna?)
4) village


I don't believe there were any insects, except what the animals brought in their fur. Insects would have been lodged in trees and subterranean levels and so unaffected by a flood.

After the Ark was supposedly built, it says:
"God shut him in" (Gen. 7:16). There was "more than one person" so what does it mean that God only shut Noah (presumably) in?

God had not intervened in the building of the Ark but then apparently he was the one to 'shut the door' if that's what it means to "shut him in"!

Then there is this apparent discrepancy:
"And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life." (Gen. 7:15-17)

but Gen. 7:2 says: "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

There's no discrepancy here as this occurs frequently in these writings where one verse gives some information and another verse will confirm that point but add other information.

According to geological data however, there is no evidence of a worldwide flood:
http://www.philvaz.c...ogetics/p82.htm

This means that either it was a more localized flood or that the story has been misunderstood.

It's only in relation to the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 37) that we will get a better idea of what Noah's Ark was really all about.

[dduckwessel]

phillip1882, on 07 September 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

question #2: do aliens need to believe?
the universe is extrodanarly huge, at least 30 billion light years across. there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies in the known universe. do aliens need to believe in jesus in order to be saved?

as far as I know, no aliens (dead or alive) have ever been produced so the question is irrelevant - but if they did exist then God does not judge by appearances but "looks at the heart"