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#16 User is offline   SaxonViolence 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:00 PM

It is interesting that two well-spoken people believe that I'm a legalist.

I am a Member of the Church of God in Christ {C.O.G.I.C.}

You have to use the abbreviation to find the Organization online, but abbreviating the words "God" and "Christ" is very controversial in some factions of our Church.

It may interest some to know that C.O.G.I.C.--Although they welcome everyone with friendship and open arms--has traditionally been a Black Church, and even today most congregations are either totally Black, or with no more than two or three White members.

I wouldn't mention this facet at all--except it may be informative to know that I'm White, and attend a Black Church.

The C.O.G.I.C. is a Pentecostal Holiness Church, very Wesleyan--Although the Organization seems to permit huge amounts of latitude to it's Elders, to preach various forms of Heterodoxy--at least, so it seems to me.

I grew up Baptist, and read and reread the works of the Rice Brothers.

Holiness is a Good thing, and I think many Churches simply ignore it, or neglect it to a greater or Lesser degree.....

But I am a Strong believer in "Eternal Security"

Holding to the most extreme form (Unless you want to go straight-up Universalist) That "Once Saved, Always Safe".....

I used to have long debates with some of the Ministers and Missionaries in Sunday School on these, and other topics.

However, we are expected to make some effort to avoid Sin, and not to simply shrug and embrace it.

I said the rewards are out of all proportion to the effort.

Doesn't the Bible say that if you so much as donate a Glass of Water to a Prophet, you will reap a Prophet's Reward--That is a huge return on a very small investment.

And Paul urges us--in addition to Love, Charity, and being a Good Example--to make a Positive Effort to pile up Heavenly Rewards.

I wasn't Diabetic when I fasted four days--that was back in 1977.

When I first joined the Church, I was urged to seek the Ministry. I had my doubts, however once I finally decided to actively seek a Minister's Title, there were all sorts of "Problems"

I wear my hair long--cutting it , and waiting for it to grow back is a Traumatic Experience for me.

Sure Paul asked once, if a man's long hair wasn't a disgrace--and I honestly believe that if I get my Time Machine working, and brush up on my Aramaic--that I can talk Paul out of that position--if he only knew the controversy that it would cause over the centuries, that he would have used another analogy. :)

Anyway, that's the same place where he says that a Woman's head should be Veiled, and they shouldn't say a word in Church.

My Church doesn't enforce those Mandates.

Secondly, I was unemployed and had no income. A Minister is expected to attend a larger set of functions, and maintain a certain Standard of Dress.....

Now I told them straight up, I don't do Either Ties, or Shirt Tucks.....

"That's fine, but we can't have you sitting up front with the Ministers and looking like little Abner."

Third, some time ago, I decided to wear only Black. I'm very heavy. I like Black. When I was working in the factory or slaughter houses, black didn't stain as easily.....

And I just like the image.

My Elder tells me that wearing Black worsens my Depression. The Church has no problem with all Black--but in my case, he thinks it would help my Depression.....

For awhile, I tried going to Church sans Black, but it Grieved me to spend good money on Blue Jeans and Purple Turtle necks, when for the same amount of money, I could have bought Black ones.

Anyway, ask me, "SV, if you knew for a fact, that abandoning your Black Wardrobe would completely cure your Depression, would you do it?"

"No, I would not, it is too high a price to pay."

Besides, I got tired of trying to maintain two separate Wardrobes. So I went back to solid Black.

That is a Strike against me being a Minister, because I'm not fully submitted to his Authority.

So anyway, one has to be a Minister for at least three years to be elevated to Elder. I've seen several Friends elevated to Minister against their will and better Judgement, and several of them are Elders now--and I can't seem to get to 1st Base.

Be all that as it may.

I gave up going to Church because A. It is a major chore for me to get dressed, shoed, and ready to leave the house. I often go a month or two without setting foot outside my house.

B. I have Sleep Apnea, and it had gotten to where I invariably fell asleep--and it really didn't make sense to get dressed, and drive across the River to take a Nap.

I am not convicted about not going--but I'm sure some think that I'm back on the Hell-Bound Express because I quit going.

When I get back to going: I have a Reasonable Wardrobe, including Suit Jacket and both Black and Bright Turtle-Necks.

I am going to be much more insistent on getting a Minister's License. I never thought God needed Snitches, nor do I feel compelled to comment on other people's behavior.....

Yet I know that Men were elevated to Minister and Elder, and women elevated to Missionary, with faults that cause my hair, Eternal Security message, and my Minor lack of Obedience to be laughably inconsequential. Some of them have been lambasted from the Pulpit, in front of everyone, for some of these faults.

Lonely--not precisely. I have three wonderful Dogs, a Sister, and Dozens of Internet Friends.

I do miss my Father a great deal--no one else can fill that void he left.....

And my Mother to some degree--though I was her primary care-giver through several years of near Helplessness, and I'm far more at peace with her going--and Honestly, I was much closer to my Father.

Depression: That's one of the reasons that I draw disability. I have been on 80Mg of Prozack up until a week ago, and I'm still taking 50Mg of Elevil.....

The only bad effect that I've seen so far, to cutting out the Prozac, is a tendency to put far more words into mt Forum Posts, and I was always Verbose.

Saxon Violence
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#17 User is offline   pamela 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:17 PM

woah....
Sax you don't have to defend your beliefs or give your background. You are who you are and what you believe is your own.I apologise if i have offended you, as that was not my intent. You laid your POV out there and it seemed to hold underlying guilt and condemnation, which are often the result of organised religion and a slanted interpretation from the Church's various factions and sects.
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed. A. E.
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#18 User is offline   SaxonViolence 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:42 PM

Oh no, I am not the least offended. :rolleyes:

I have a bad tendancy to want to clarify again and again and again.....

That is just me.

I try to reign it in.

Some people think I'm arguing--when I'm merely trying to distinguish between what I consider Subtle yet Important Nuances.

The condition wasn't a popular diagnosis when I was in school, but several Friends tell me that I'm most probably a High-Functioning Asperger's-- I may very well be.

I am very much what I once heard referred to as: a "Verbal Literalist."

The sticky said "Stick to Theology", and I think I've done that--pretty much.

Eternal Security verses Wesleyanism is a valid Theological Argument.

"Just how much Obedience to Authority does the Bible Mandate?"

"Does the Bible teach that men Should keep their Hair cropped like a bunch of ROTC Jocks?"

"What are the Qualifications for Ministers?"

I kinda threw them out as I went along--but I think they could all be considered valid Topics for Theological debate.

Actually, I enjoyed writing that last missive--though I will strive for more Conciseness and Brevity.

Saxon Violence
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#19 User is offline   sigurdV 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:49 PM

Hi Pamela!

It has been a... perhaps not "fun", but at least "not boring" communication with you.
But, alas, somebody told me I was intentionally disrupting the thread with provoking statements, so I decided to abandon it since Im no interupter nor a provocateur :)

Perhaps you could restate your argument in here? I think we were discussing descriptions of God ?
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#20 User is offline   pamela 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:50 PM

View PostSaxonViolence, on 13 January 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Oh no, I am not the least offended. :rolleyes:

I have a bad tendancy to want to clarify again and again and again.....

That is just me.

I try to reign it in.

Some people think I'm arguing--when I'm merely trying to distinguish between what I consider Subtle yet Important Nuances.

The condition wasn't a popular diagnosis when I was in school, but several Friends tell me that I'm most probably a High-Functioning Asperger's-- I may very well be.

Cool wasn't quite sure after your response ;)
My son has Aspergers, so I will bear that in mind. I however, have often been accused of being obscure, especially when it comes to religious topics. :P

Quote

I am very much what I once heard referred to as: a "Verbal Literalist."

The sticky said "Stick to Theology", and I think I've done that--pretty much.

Eternal Security verses Wesleyanism is a valid Theological Argument.

"Just how much Obedience to Authority does the Bible Mandate?"

"Does the Bible teach that men Should keep their Hair cropped like a bunch of ROTC Jocks?"

"What are the Qualifications for Ministers?"

I kinda threw them out as I went along--but I think they could all be considered valid Topics for Theological debate.

Actually, I enjoyed writing that last missive--though I will strive for more Conciseness and Brevity.

Saxo Violence

well certainly start a new thread on a particular subject if you like, but don't feel you have to be brief :)
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed. A. E.
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#21 User is offline   pamela 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:57 PM

View PostsigurdV, on 13 January 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Hi Pamela!

It has been a... perhaps not "fun", but at least "not boring" communication with you.
But, alas, somebody told me I was intentionally disrupting the thread with provoking statements, so I decided to abandon it since Im no interupter nor a provocateur :)

Perhaps you could restate your argument in here? I think we were discussing descriptions of God ?

hmmmn i have an idea Sig, why don't you start a new thread about it. But remember,the view point is taken from religious text and the analysation thereof. It isn't about the rights or wrongs of a particular religion nor its validity :)
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed. A. E.
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#22 User is offline   sigurdV 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:08 PM

View Postpamela, on 13 January 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

hmmmn i have an idea Sig, why don't you start a new thread about it. But remember,the view point is taken from religious text and the analysation thereof. It isn't about the rights or wrongs of a particular religion nor its validity :)

First: Ill think about that, I think I dislike starting too many threads.

Next: What viewpoint? And how then is truth coming into the picture?
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#23 User is offline   pamela 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:25 PM

View PostsigurdV, on 13 January 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

First: Ill think about that, I think I dislike starting too many threads.

Next: What viewpoint? And how then is truth coming into the picture?

well i can start one if you like
truth? it should not come into the picture. We are simply anaylising not attributing truth or truths to religion. Your view point should be somewhere along the lines of taking ideas, concepts or excerpts from a piece of literature which in this case, would be the Bible. You could use another though, if you like. Up to you really, let me know if you want me to start a thread. But now, i must away, for espresso, torte and lively conversation awaiteth I at the local cafe.
cya later :)
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed. A. E.
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#24 User is offline   sigurdV 

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 03:51 PM

View Postpamela, on 13 January 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

well i can start one if you like
truth? it should not come into the picture. We are simply anaylising not attributing truth or truths to religion. Your view point should be somewhere along the lines of taking ideas, concepts or excerpts from a piece of literature which in this case, would be the Bible. You could use another though, if you like. Up to you really, let me know if you want me to start a thread. But now, i must away, for espresso, torte and lively conversation awaiteth I at the local cafe.
cya later :)


Ok, when Im sure of what the topic should be Ill follow your recommendation.

Meanwhile i suspect no analysis worthy of the name can be done without questions of truth coming in here and there, perhaps hidden in phrases like "your analysis of x is not valid since y". Am I supposed to believe that theologicians consider their activity not to be a research where truth comes in at various places, but an art where conformance to ideals other than truth, say: Beauty , plays the major role? Analyses produced by theologicians should be admired (or loathed) not questioned?!

I think it is necessary for us understanding a statement that we understand what should be the case if the sentence expressing the statement is true! AND! No analysis of a statement is possible if one doesnt understand the sentence expressing the statement. Right? Or have theologicians found a way around this requirement?

Hmmm... How about: Truth and Theology ... Not too bad, but would theologicians care to enter and debate?
What do you think? Would you open and debate in such a thread?
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