[sigurdV]

As I suspected...not among nostratic and the others just above the root!

The majority is always too slow in appriciating the truth... remember Wegener

Or Darwin and the age of Earth

How can an innovator Not! start in the minority?

[JMJones0424]

The first step in the process of getting the majority to recognize truth would be to show the truth of one's truth that one's truth is not false, would it not?

*I like that wording better. As always, the null hypothesis is assumed and it should be the goal of the promoter of non-standard explanations to gather evidence that causes one to reject the null hypothesis. Proving truths is for the omniscient.

This post has been edited by JMJones0424: 17 January 2012 - 04:13 PM

[sigurdV]

JMJones0424, on 17 January 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

The first step in the process of getting the majority to recognize truth would be to show the truth of one's truth that one's truth is not false, would it not?

*I like that wording better. As always, the null hypothesis is assumed and it should be the goal of the promoter of non-standard explanations to gather evidence that causes one to reject the null hypothesis. Proving truths is for the omniscient.

Hey! We are going to clash!

Prove that "Proving truths is for the omniscient"... which would prove YOU omniscient!

Its ok if you only s h o w the truth of your last statement, which by the way is the only thing in your entry i cant accept (Bribed a little, since no truth can be false according to classic logic, but i think you really meant statement.)

PS Where did you pick up the term "null hypothesis"? Isnt "dull hypothesis" more apt?

[JMJones0424]

sigurdV, on 17 January 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Prove that "Proving truths is for the omniscient"... which would prove YOU omniscient!

Logic is your domain, not mine. There are logical proofs. This is science. Because it is not possible for a person with limited amount of information to know everything about a subject, it is not possible to "prove" in science. Instead, one devises falsifiable hypothesis and attempts to disprove them by searching for data that contradicts the hypotheses.

Say I've got an idea. The Zuni language is associated with the Dravidian family of languages. The null hypothesis is that the Zuni language is not associated. My job is to gather evidence which leads me to reject the null hypothesis. It is not possible to prove that my idea is correct, because even if I have access to all information that exists now, I do not have access to any information that may be discovered in the future. Instead, it is my task to disprove the negation of the idea, leaving the idea as the most likely explanation.

This is a philosophy of science question, and there are likely many threads on the subject written by people more competent than I in that forum. I think Karl Popper's ideas on the problem of induction is central to this.

[belovelife]

are we getting off topic



(imagine me saying that )

ok

[sigurdV]

The magic formula "Popper" calms down the agitated bull hypothesis: sigurdV, who is now seen happily feeding on supposed green matter from eden served in this thread Might a list of the languages just above the root might be of some help in the linguist side of the hypothesis?I think John Barrow in "The pi in the sky" is doing a marvellous telling of the story: He notices that the further you go from rift valley the poorer the conception of number is! Establishing a connection between lingustics (in the wide sense of including mathematics) and genetics.

And,I agree that the small matter concerning method in the entries above is not belonging to the topic... perhaps the Metatopic then?

What will myopic administrators decide if the methods needed for deciding on the topic are adressed instead of the topic, declare them off topic??

Belovelife is surely a first class artist when it comes to emoticons!(ok ok not in the topic I know! But shouldnt there be a thread somewhere dedicated on translating statements into the language of emoticons (and back) ,the set of which perhaps should be enlargened? Where is the cow/bull munching on...)

[rocket art]

JMJones0424, on 17 January 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

1.) Genetic evidence Since you have clarified your meaning of "all tribes in the world" to mean "all descending tribes of the Bagobo people", my genetic complaint is no longer relevant. I would caution against future statements that may cloud the issue, as it was not apparent to me what you were claiming.

2.) Geological evidence You still have not shown any geological process that could have done away with a continent in the time that humans have existed as a species. It would be silly of me to argue that limestone formations above ground did not originate from the sea floor. It would be silly of me to argue that the occasional city or two could not have been engulfed by rising ocean levels. I have not argued either of those points. My complaint is specific. There is no evidence, and in fact there is no known geological process that can remove a continent from the face of the Earth in 200,000 years. However, neither have you shown that this is even a part of the origin myth you are seeking to explain. This entire line of investigation seems to me to taint your presentation with the same stain of wishful thinking and mysticism contrary to evidence that exists with all claims of a lost continent, Atlantis, Mu, or otherwise.

3.) Archaeological evidence I have previously stated existence alone of other archaeological sites without evidence associating them with the Bagobo people is not support for your claims. Your reply was nothing but more suppositions.

4.) Linguistic evidence So far, the only evidence you have provided is that Cibola sounds similar to Cibolan and the Dravidian word civ-pola. This is superficial. In order to be more than just purely circumstancial, you would need to show some etymological tie from Dravidian to the Zuni language. If there were a link, one would expect to find more similar vocabulary and grammar. Cibolo/cibola is an old Spanish word for buffalo. The evidence is overwhelming that the A:shawi in the area had contact with the Spanish, that the Spanish named their area Cibola, and that they did so because the buffalo was an integral part of their life. I have done some digging around about the origin of the "seven cities of Cibola" story, and have found numerous references but no proof from a solid source that the myth, and therefore the name, originates from Spain itself, not from India.

The myth as told by the Spanish that named the area has its beginning in the Muslim invasion of the city of Marida, Spain, in 1150. Seven bishops fled the city with the church's riches and sailed west to escape the Moors. Each bishop was said to have founded a city which grew in wealth, however, as myths often do, there was never any attempt to give the location of these seven cities.

Fast forward now to the Spanish conquest of the New World. Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca, one of only 4 surviving members of the Narváez expedition to colonize Florida, recounts tails of riches and claims to have found evidence of the lost seven cities. His tale is truly amazing, but only important to this story in that he helped fuel the rumors of further riches in the American southwest.

Flush from looting the Aztecs, and in search of more gold, the viceroy sent Fra Marcos de Niza to find the lost cities. He took with him Estevanico, a slave and another survivor of the Narváez expedition, and two others. They turned back after illness struck the group, but in the distance, they had spotted a vast pueblo settlement and when they returned to Mexico City, they claimed to have found the first of the lost cities in the district the Spanish had named Cibola. The next year, Coronado set out on his famous mission to find the seven cities, and Marcos de Niza was disgraced when all they found were two pueblo cities.


Thank you for providing an account of the Bagobo origin myth. In case you don't have it already, here's an online copy of the entire book that contains that passage. Philippine Folk Tales by Mabel Cook Cole. As noted in your source and in the footnotes of the book by Cole

I would like to reply to your statements as much as possible, however due to limited time I will try to enumerate relative to my availability. I will now be replying to your statement evidence 1 as for the moment, and will share the same with the others when availability provides.

Quote

1.) Genetic evidence Since you have clarified your meaning of "all tribes in the world" to mean "all descending tribes of the Bagobo people", my genetic complaint is no longer relevant. I would caution against future statements that may cloud the issue, as it was not apparent to me what you were claiming.

Indeed so. To remind however, the statement as mentioned in the Title of the article still remains my position.

Perhaps it may interest you, as I have noticed in the video you posted, there is also recorded among the earliest settlers in the geneaology of our country's pre-colonial ancestors was a tribe of seeming similar characteristics with the San bushmen. They were known as the Negritos (present-day Aetas) with origins being traced along areas of Madagascar. Similarly with the San bushmen, they also possessed crude technology. They were however, considered among the best archers.

Fast forward, based on the account of the Bagobo mythology there was mention among those children that scattered throughout were the foreparents of B'laan peoples (who carried with them the ancient knowledge of supposed hermaphroditic ancestors hence manifesting a belief system/culture, in which such knowledge was also narrated by the Greek philosopher Plato) that mentioned of more "advanced" technology by carrying with them women's woven baskets known as "b'raan" hence their name originated from. Indeed it portrayed a people scattered throughout with more developed technology and manifesting an intelligence of "Tribe" consciousness.

It therefore solidifies further my position.




But then I'd like to mention our ancient ancestors also possesed with them myths of origins of Humankind. However, it was more of "creation" (not to be misconstrued as influenced by Christianity as it is more ancient) rather than evolution, intriguingly even with detail as to mention the deity choosing specific location as sourcing ingredient for skeletal system from the limestone cliffs of Bukidnon, Mindanao island . However as underlined in your statement, we may as well tackle for the moment the relevance of the 2,3, and 4 evidences with due consideration to time and availability :

[rocket art]

JMJones0424, on 17 January 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

The first step in the process of getting the majority to recognize truth would be to show the truth of one's truth that one's truth is not false, would it not?

*I like that wording better. As always, the null hypothesis is assumed and it should be the goal of the promoter of non-standard explanations to gather evidence that causes one to reject the null hypothesis. Proving truths is for the omniscient.

sigurdV, on 17 January 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Hey! We are going to clash!

Prove that "Proving truths is for the omniscient"... which would prove YOU omniscient!

Its ok if you only s h o w the truth of your last statement, which by the way is the only thing in your entry i cant accept (Bribed a little, since no truth can be false according to classic logic, but i think you really meant statement.)

PS Where did you pick up the term "null hypothesis"? Isnt "dull hypothesis" more apt?

your ongoing arguments folks reminded me of a composition I once made:

"It takes one to know everything before he can say he knows nothing.

I do not know everything, so I cannot say I know nothing." - Ric Vil Hori

Hopefully the logic behind the composition will resolve the issue so we can proceed with the appropriate topic at hand

[sigurdV]

rocket art, on 18 January 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

your ongoing arguments folks reminded me of a composition I once made:

"It takes one to know everything before he can say he knows nothing.

I do not know everything, so I cannot say I know nothing." - Ric Vil Hori

Hopefully the logic behind the composition will resolve the issue so we can proceed with the appropriate topic at hand

Well said! Your composition (Probably dedicated to Socrates.) is not "strictly true" if what is means is that we eventually can know nothing...But it IS explaining the matter in an admirable way! Please continue, ancient matters are fascinating!

[rocket art]

sigurdV, on 18 January 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Well said! Your composition (Probably dedicated to Socrates.) is not "strictly true" if what is means is that we eventually can know nothing...But it IS explaining the matter in an admirable way! Please continue, ancient matters are fascinating!

Woah thanks woohoo

(Socrates composed something similar to that?)


Ok we continue,

Quote

2.) Geological evidence You still have not shown any geological process that could have done away with a continent in the time that humans have existed as a species. It would be silly of me to argue that limestone formations above ground did not originate from the sea floor. It would be silly of me to argue that the occasional city or two could not have been engulfed by rising ocean levels. I have not argued either of those points.

I believe there is evidence, and it's even larger. I believe the archipelago islands of the Philippines is a major evidence itself. I believe the archipelago was borne out of more recent origin, more likely in the Cenozoic era, and it's volcanic in origin mostly borne out of Subduction, and in a series of consequences as the Philippine and Marianas trenches became more prominent, the continuing movement of the crust from where the legendary continent was located sunk deeper underwater towards the heat of the mantle, to be spewed out as magma by its many volcanoes to bring forth the archipelago islands.

Quote

My complaint is specific. There is no evidence, and in fact there is no known geological process that can remove a continent from the face of the Earth in 200,000 years. However, neither have you shown that this is even a part of the origin myth you are seeking to explain. This entire line of investigation seems to me to taint your presentation with the same stain of wishful thinking and mysticism contrary to evidence that exists with all claims of a lost continent, Atlantis, Mu, or otherwise.

I do believe you are aware that demanding evidences to be extracted from a period of 200,000 years or more seemed to be quiet a colossal one. It would be understandable for your Scientific discipline to be rigidly demanding, that is if the situation would have been conveniently ranged from thousands or tens of thousand years, but to be equally rigid for such demand that spanned hundreds of thousands of years would definitely be too colossal stiffy to remain stubborn.

However this may not mean some hopeless dearth of evidences, it's just that perhaps we could beg for those very rare "crumbs" for whatever we could account from scratch after those hundreds of thousand years, but there were indeed some precious traces left, and suffice for it rather than demand just to appease some rendered impractical rigid standards because hey, beggars can't be choosers

That said, I guess I may have found some crumbs after all, so refrain from the complain mode. Considering the concern of availability and time constraints (my clock reads beyond midnight already here), let me enumerate some "crumbs" for the meantime:

* Myths and legends of Indigenous Peoples and ancient civilizations
* Mayan Calendar

er, I guess the latter doesn't seem to be categorized as "crumb," guess it's more like jackpot cookie. These will further be discussed as we go along.

[belovelife]

are you aware of any texts in scroll or stone carving form, that have any of the symobols at the site?

[belovelife]

where did the smiley reading a book go?

[Moontanman]

It's difficult to believe that a thread that asserts such inane horse feathers has been allowed to continue on this forum. JMJones i see that you have done your best to point out how meaningless the "evidence" so far provided has been.

[rocket art]

belovelife, on 19 January 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

are you aware of any texts in scroll or stone carving form, that have any of the symobols at the site?

I'm starting to believe your great great ancestor was once a cave painter

They did discover some hieroglyphics:

http://www.world-mys...pl_Yonaguni.htm

Quote

It is interesting to note that a number of tools have been discovered both on land and in the sea around the structures.

Close to the pyramid structure, what is thought to be the carving of a human head has been discovered (several feet tall), along with numerous unknown hieroglyphs.

The Japan Times reported the following story to add intrigue to the find

“In Okinawan folk-law, there are tales of traditional Gods , and a land of the Gods called Nirai Kanai, an unknown faraway land from where happiness is brought.”

Moontanman, on 19 January 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

It's difficult to believe that a thread that asserts such inane horse feathers has been allowed to continue on this forum. JMJones i see that you have done your best to point out how meaningless the "evidence" so far provided has been.

do try carving your own self-portrait wearing horsefeathers hundreds of feet underwater just like what was discovered in Yonaguni to prove that anybody can just make evidences as those,


If you can.


I'm not even finished yet with 2 and had been gathering crumbs of evidences riding a time machine traveling backward hundreds of thousands of years ago, so don't make any swift conclusions yet as if merely conveniently making comments how I fared riding a 360 deg. rollercoaster (which I liked anwyay). I suggest to diagnose such impatience you may for the meantime, finally spend time to ride the nasty rollercoaster you've been scared to do so all along, and make a difference in existence











As er, prequel for these would perhaps take more time to discuss, I highly suggest to some individuals not to disregard the preserved myths and legends spanning through the ages that Humanity has been blessedly endowed with such priceless treasures, especially of the Indigenous Peoples, for to do so would betray closemindedness and mediocrity on their part. From what I had observed that I will soon be posting, it may even hold clues as to how the Asteroid Belt came about, and could provide hints as to the waterless Mars, and shed light as to those Sentient beings Admiral Rychard Byrd had encountered in post WW2 in which he finally revealed in his last moments on Earth, his profound experience as legacy to a Humanity entering the 21st Century and the Future, and despite attempt by the US government in otherwise keeping his diary top secret.

[Moontanman]

rocket art, on 19 January 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I'm starting to believe your great great ancestor was once a cave painter

They did discover some hieroglyphics:

http://www.world-mys...pl_Yonaguni.htm









do try carving your own self-portrait wearing horsefeathers hundreds of feet underwater just like what was discovered in Yonaguni to prove that anybody can just make evidences as those,


If you can.


I'm not even finished yet with 2 and had been gathering crumbs of evidences riding a time machine traveling backward hundreds of thousands of years ago, so don't make any swift conclusions yet as if merely conveniently making comments how I fared riding a 360 deg. rollercoaster (which I liked anwyay). I suggest to diagnose such impatience you may for the meantime, finally spend time to ride the nasty rollercoaster you've been scared to do so all along, and make a difference in existence











As er, prequel for these would perhaps take more time to discuss, I highly suggest to some individuals not to disregard the preserved myths and legends spanning through the ages that Humanity has been blessedly endowed with such priceless treasures, especially of the Indigenous Peoples, for to do so would betray closemindedness and mediocrity on their part. From what I had observed that I will soon be posting, it may even hold clues as to how the Asteroid Belt came about, and could provide hints as to the waterless Mars, and shed light as to those Sentient beings Admiral Rychard Byrd had encountered in post WW2 in which he finally revealed in his last moments on Earth, his profound experience as legacy to a Humanity entering the 21st Century and the Future, and despite attempt by the US government in otherwise keeping his diary top secret.

So far all you have done is spit into the wind, sadly as with many who are deeply into pseudoscience babble, spitting into the wind affirms their feelings of persecution because no one else really can see the reality they have built in their minds... I miss the old forum so much...