[Rade]

Can anyone provide a rational argument why all the beasts , creepy things , and birds of the earth had to be killed by the flood, with only those able to make it to the ark of Noah able to survive and reproduce ? I mean, I can understand killing all the evil humans, , but Bambi and Kermit and Mr. Ed, for what good reason ?

[Moontanman]

Rade, on 20 January 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Can anyone provide a rational argument why all the beasts , creepy things , and birds of the earth had to be killed by the flood, with only those able to make it to the ark of Noah able to survive and reproduce ? I mean, I can understand killing all the evil humans, , but Bambi and Kermit and Mr. Ed, for what good reason ?

Since it is easily demonstrated the flood did not happen I can't see where you are going with this... But it is true the bible is quite harsh on animals god feels like have sinned in some way, if a woman lies with a ass, both of them must be killed.. LMFAO

[dduckwessel]

If there's no geological evidence for a global flood then the entire story is questionable from the usual standpoint.

Variations of a flood story are prevalent in many cultures though and I have to wonder why?:
http://www.talkorigi...lood-myths.html

Too, when the Tsunami hit Japan, many animals must have perished? Many people today believe that God (as thought to be the creator of this world) caused the Tsunami (and so the loss of lives, both human and animal)! However, that would be an archaic view as today we know that movement of underwater tectonic plates causes earthquakes, which generates Tsunami's!

[Moontanman]

dduckwessel, on 23 January 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

If there's no geological evidence for a global flood then the entire story is questionable from the usual standpoint.

Variations of a flood story are prevalent in many cultures though and I have to wonder why?:
http://www.talkorigi...lood-myths.html

Too, when the Tsunami hit Japan, many animals must have perished? Many people today believe that God (as thought to be the creator of this world) caused the Tsunami (and so the loss of lives, both human and animal)! However, that would be an archaic view as today we know that movement of underwater tectonic plates causes earthquakes, which generates Tsunami's!

Ever seen a flash flood? There is geological evidence for some pretty bad floods, some no doubt flooded thousands of square miles of land, and these were in the last few thousand years... I am quite sure the idea of a flood is both a genetic memory and a real mythos passed down from generation to generation but it was a natural occurrence over a very limited area, there was no world wide flood brought about by god...

[dduckwessel]

Moontanman, on 23 January 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Ever seen a flash flood? There is geological evidence for some pretty bad floods, some no doubt flooded thousands of square miles of land, and these were in the last few thousand years... I am quite sure the idea of a flood is both a genetic memory and a real mythos passed down from generation to generation but it was a natural occurrence over a very limited area, there was no world wide flood brought about by god...

You're correct, I've never seen a flash flood or I'm sure I would remember it...I wonder though - why a flood in particular?...you would think a volcanic eruption would have made more of an impression on ancient folks yet there doesn't appear to be as much folklore about those kinds of events?

[JMJones0424]

Moontanman, on 23 January 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

I am quite sure the idea of a flood is both a genetic memory and a real mythos passed down from generation to generation

What do you mean by "genetic memory" here?

dduckwessel, on 29 January 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

I wonder though - why a flood in particular?...you would think a volcanic eruption would have made more of an impression on ancient folks yet there doesn't appear to be as much folklore about those kinds of events?

People who live near volcanoes include many tales involving volcanoes in their mythology. Those who don't, don't. Google is your friend.

[Moontanman]

JMJones0424, on 29 January 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

What do you mean by "genetic memory" here?

Animals have genetic memories, possibly instinct is a better way to put it. Animals will try to get away from danger by instinct, humans do not completely lack this instinct.

Quote

People who live near volcanoes include many tales involving volcanoes in their mythology. Those who don't, don't. Google is your friend.

It's also worth asserting that flash floods occur more often than erupting volcanoes by a significant number. Just a regular flood is scary, the water begins to turn brown at first, I've seen this first hand, a thin brown streak of water down the center of the small stream, it's a clear day, you might have heard thunder ruble in the distance but then you are sure you did, the rumble is the flood coming, not a huge rushing wall but the stream turns unto a torrent in just a couple minutes, you really have to more fast to get to high ground. Trees and even building go rushing past pushed by the huge rush of water, it is terrifying.... I have no doubt these events even on a small scale would be preserved in legend. Imagine a glacial lake as big as the great lakes of North America, held in by a damn of ice, as the earth warmed the ice gets weak and breaks away, the flood is, at least to the people living in the area, biblical in proportion.

http://en.wikipedia..../Outburst_flood

Quote

The Black Sea (around 7,600 years ago)
Main article: Black Sea deluge theory


Black Sea today (light blue) and in 5600 BC (dark blue) according to Ryan's and Pitman's theories
A rising sea flood, recently disclosed[clarification needed] and much-discussed refilling of the freshwater glacial Black Sea with water from the Aegean, was described as "a violent rush of salt water into a depressed fresh-water lake in a single catastrophe that has been the inspiration for the flood mythology" (Ryan and Pitman, 1998).[citation needed] The marine incursion, which was caused by the rising level of the Mediterranean, occurred around 7,600 years ago. It remains an active subject of debate among geologists, with subsequent evidence discovered to both support and discredit the existence of the flood, while the theory that it formed the basis for later flood myths is not proven.

[Qfwfq]

I don't see the need for this discussion going so much off topic.



No doubt the biblical flood is a legend, likely based on something that happened and the tale of it became a moral preaching. Although it did not submerge all land of the planet, something happened and narrative blew it up a bit, much like Illiad and Odyssey, much like Navigatio Brendani and of course Gilgamesh. So, why the need for argument?

The OP simply asks why so many little critters had to be punished for the sins of Man. My reply is along the lines that the preacher who wrote that story hardly cared about the poor little beasties, he only needed to give an explanation of why not all of them perished, seeing as the Hebrews were well aware of it, I guess he couldn't very well have claimed Noah saved them all and only let humans drown. It's as simple as that, I'd say.

[Rade]

Thank you Qfwfq for moving the thread back to the topic, but, your explanation was not what I asked. I am not interested in what interpretation some preacher wrote, I am interested in the logical argument God would provide...I put God on trial not the preacher.

[Qfwfq]

Rade, on 19 February 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

I am not interested in what interpretation some preacher wrote, I am interested in the logical argument God would provide...I put God on trial not the preacher.

Perhaps God would blame it on the preacher. If he even cares to show up at the hearing.

[Rade]

Qfwfq, on 26 February 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Perhaps God would blame it on the preacher. If he even cares to show up at the hearing.

But the Preacher wrote this as instructed by God <"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10>. Clearly it is best God stay away from the hearing.

[SaxonViolence]

God in his infinite wisdom, does things incomprehensible to mortal man.

Why have Noah go to all the trouble to build an Arc?

Couldn't he have created one for Noah and crew, instead of having them slave away for years building one?

Why was any Ark even necessary?

Couldn't God protected Noah and Family and Menagerie, any one of dozens of other ways?

Why the insistence that water be the agent of destruction?

These are All Childish Questions--and you wouldn't be astonished to hear them, in third or fourth Grade Sunday School Class.

They are "Childish" because once has a firm grasp of the concept that God is both all-powerful, and all-knowing.....

There are bound to be times that we simply have to shake our heads and Candidly Admit that we have no idea what God was thinking, when did this, that or the other thing.

Saxon Violence

This post has been edited by SaxonViolence: 27 February 2012 - 09:07 AM

[Rade]

Yes, all-powerful and all-knowing but not all-good, for as God tells us, 'only the good takes care of the animals'.

[Moontanman]

SaxonViolence, on 27 February 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

God in his infinite wisdom, does things incomprehensible to mortal man.

Why have Noah go to all the trouble to build an Arc?

Couldn't he have created one for Noah and crew, instead of having them slave away for years building one?

Why was any Ark even necessary?

Couldn't God protected Noah and Family and Menagerie, any one of dozens of other ways?

Why the insistence that water be the agent of destruction?

These are All Childish Questions--and you wouldn't be astonished to hear them, in third or fourth Grade Sunday School Class.

They are "Childish" because once has a firm grasp of the concept that God is both all-powerful, and all-knowing.....

There are bound to be times that we simply have to shake our heads and Candidly Admit that we have no idea what God was thinking, when did this, that or the other thing.

Saxon Violence

Then again, and much more likely is, there are no gods and this is the stuff of legends written about floods on a more local scale.

[Knothead]

Noah:
God, what am I going to say to all the other animals? How am I going to choose only two? Why must so many innocent animals have to pay for the sins of man? It grieves me sorely.

God:
I'm sorry Noah. I know it sucks. But you truly are the best man for this job. Someone has to be the one to represent the future of the human race and you really are a pretty good dude. You've always had your priorities straight and you never tried to feed me a line of bull when I asked you about all those cruel, greedy, polluting, ungrateful cousins of yours. You always treated your fellow creatures with kindness and empathy and I know how hard it must be for you to know that so many are going to have to die for the sins of man. But they aren't my animals Noah, they are man's. Just like this land I gave you. It was all yours to cherish and nurture or to waste and defile. As much as it hurts both of us Noah, it's your cousins you should be blaming for this. I guess you could say it's part of price.
But take comfort buddy. Just between you and me, those critters aren't going anywhere really. Not even those animals you're related to. Trust me Noah. I have thought this out. That's why they pay me the big bucks.

Noah:
Grumble...grumble....

God:
What was that?

Noah:
Will I ever really understand?

God:
Oh Noah, you already do. You just don't know it yet. But I promise you this. Those animals will never suffer as much pain as you are suffering now.
Rest easy.