[Qfwfq]

So, is it a meme or is it a gene, then?

People who prefer strawberry icecream and hate banana refuse to support their choice with logic and reason; they even despise the idea of applying the same kind of criteria to it as, say, theoretical physicists who propose the standard model of particles. They will simply rebuke that they don't have to, they might even say it doesn't matter which icecream is more nourishing or healthier; they simply like one better than the other. Gee they must be delusional. There are even people who get themselves killed because they don't care what doctors say about the impact of foods they have a craving for. They bloody well deserve the ailments they end up with, perhaps we should shoot them.

Oh, and yes, some people refuse to admit when they've fallen for a cunning salesman. They do their best to actually like what they bought, contrary to the reality of it demonstrably being crap, due to the fear of admitting the preacher salesman cheated them out.

[dduckwessel]

belovelife, on 02 February 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

you see , this is why i am spiritual, not religious

I tend to agree with belovelife. Many people assume that spiritual and religious are the same but while a spiritual person can exist with others, a religious person cannot exist outside of their particular denomination.

The spiritual person is not tied down by boundaries, the religious person cannot exist without them!

[dduckwessel]

Qfwfq, on 03 February 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

So, is it a meme or is it a gene, then?

People who prefer strawberry icecream and hate banana refuse to support their choice with logic and reason; they even despise the idea of applying the same kind of criteria to it as, say, theoretical physicists who propose the standard model of particles. They will simply rebuke that they don't have to, they might even say it doesn't matter which icecream is more nourishing or healthier; they simply like one better than the other. Gee they must be delusional. There are even people who get themselves killed because they don't care what doctors say about the impact of foods they have a craving for. They bloody well deserve the ailments they end up with, perhaps we should shoot them.

People make religious choices based on logical (to them) ideas...what formulated those ideas is another story...people start with "I believe in God" (spirituality) but end up with "I believe in (my) religion" and it all goes downhill from there.

[sigurdV]

Qfwfq, on 03 February 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

So, is it a meme or is it a gene, then?

People who prefer strawberry icecream and hate banana refuse to support their choice with logic and reason; they even despise the idea of applying the same kind of criteria to it as, say, theoretical physicists who propose the standard model of particles. They will simply rebuke that they don't have to, they might even say it doesn't matter which icecream is more nourishing or healthier; they simply like one better than the other. Gee they must be delusional. There are even people who get themselves killed because they don't care what doctors say about the impact of foods they have a craving for. They bloody well deserve the ailments they end up with, perhaps we should shoot them.

Oh, and yes, some people refuse to admit when they've fallen for a cunning salesman. They do their best to actually like what they bought, contrary to the reality of it demonstrably being crap, due to the fear of admitting the preacher salesman cheated them out.

The name Stephen Potter comes to mind.

So: Our consciousness isnt the lord of our mind?

[Eudoxus]

I am actually composing a Youtube video on the concept of religion as a memetic disease. I got the idea while watching an old Hitchens debate where the religious proponent declared that since religion has existed for most of human history, by evolutionary logic it must give some sort of survival advantage, or else it would have died off. The answer to this, of course, is that diseases have also been with mankind for its entire history, and give no survival advantage--in fact, there are a severe disadvantage to survival--yet persist. This is because disease organisms are parasites and evolve on their own path to take advantage of humans, and constantly change to thwart the human immune system. I think that religion is in many ways analogous, except that instead of operating on a biological level it operates on a memetic level; the level of thoughts, ideas, and beliefs. Not, as Ms. Pamela for some reason tried to insist, a neurological level.


Anyway I don't see any killer arguments here; mainly the usual misrepresentations, assertions, and hand waving that the religious usually throw up; a trait developed by their memetic parasites to resist the antibiotic of reason.

[bravox]

Why does religion have to be explained, in terms of memes or whatever? Does anybody attempt to "explain" science? What if science is a memetic "disease"? Who cares?

I find it amusing that religion is such a constant topic in forums like this. I don't understand why people who aren't religious worry about it so much. I don't like vegetarianism, rap music, marijuana, I think those things are detrimental to a person's mental or physical health, but I don't stretch my mind trying to figure out why people enjoy those things. Whatever floats their boat. Why does it matter?

Now of course someone will say that religion is harmful to society, look at the Twin Towers, the Inquisition, the Crusades, Galileo, yada-yada. As if humans would suddenly become perfectly moral if it weren't for their irrational beliefs. Ironically, since most religions provide an explanation why humans are so morally corrupt, the problem must have existed before those religions were developed.

I say, let people believe what they want, do not try to rationalize away their thoughts since you are not inside their minds. Do not assume you're an atheist because you are so smart, because that is absolutely not true. The world is full of smart believers and stupid atheists.

[Eudoxus]

Hey, more static.

I attempt to explain religion, so as to understand why such a large percentage of the human population can behave so irrationally and so dangerously. I don't claim to totally understand religion. I don't know if it's a causative factor for human violence, or a second or third order by-product of human nature. I don't know. So I try to understand it.

I wouldn't mind religion. People can believe what they want. Except that these violent religious folks vote, and vote against the liberties that my ancestors died to give us. They seek to destroy the system that makes life good for everyone else. In other places violently religious people are dictators and use their religion to justify, and get away with, the oppression of women, the destruction of civil liberties, and even plan, straight-up mass murder.

For these reasons, I must oppose religion, I must seek to understand it and construct a model that explains its behavior. If enough of us try to do this, someone may succeed in discovering how to prevent violent psychopaths from being able to use religion to their own ends; we may discover a way to let peoples' crazy beliefs and our modern scientific society coexist peacefully. But for now religious dictators and people like Westboro Baptist Church still exist, and the damage these people do is real.



Peoples' beliefs affect more than just themselves. Live and let live is a noble proposition, but not intelligent when the other fellow is coming at you with a bomb strapped to his chest.

This post has been edited by Eudoxus: 21 March 2012 - 08:12 AM

[bravox]

Eudoxus, on 21 March 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

I attempt to explain religion, so as to understand why such a large percentage of the human population can behave so irrationally and so dangerously.

Dangerously? Where do you live, Afghanistan?

Real danger in the Western world comes from criminals. I'm worried about robbers, murderers, rapists, drug dealers, con men. I have to keep my doors locked, watch where I go, prevent my kids from going out at night, buy property insurance. Crime takes away my liberties and costs me money.

Religious people? Come on! Who's being irrational here?

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I don't claim to totally understand religion. So I try to understand it.

The best way to understand religion is to join a church. Seriously. As an outsider, you can only have a misinformed opinion.

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I wouldn't mind religion. People can believe what they want. Except that these violent religious folks vote, and vote against the liberties that my ancestors died to give us.

You mean, they vote republican? What's the problem? If you don't like democracy you can always move to China.

(I'm assuming you're American. It seems it's mostly Americans who have this irrational fear of religion)

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In other places violently religious people are dictators and use their religion to justify, and get away with, the oppression of women, the destruction of civil liberties, and even plan, straight-up mass murder.

Why can't you be honest and say you are actually afraid of Islam? I don't know any Christian, Buddhist or Hindu society where those things happen. And need I point out that the greatest genocide in human history was promoted by an officially atheist regime? (I'm talking about the USSR)

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For these reasons, I must oppose religion,

That is your right in a democracy.

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we may discover a way to let peoples' crazy beliefs and our modern scientific society coexist peacefully

May I suggest a trip to India? Mexico perhaps? How about Thailand?

In any of those places you can learn a lot about "crazy beliefs" coexisting peacefully with modern science. As a bonus you can have a good time.

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Live and let live is a noble proposition, but not intelligent when the other fellow is coming at you with a bomb strapped to his chest.

I agree. Problem is, the fellow with the bomb strapped to his chest also believed in live and let live. He died believing he was defending his people's way of life.

You may have trouble accepting this but Muslims actually like their way of life. They have a deep desire to preserve their values and their traditions. They see the individualistic, materialistic, oversexualized and, worst of all, aggressive behaviour of Western nations as a threat to their way of life. Killing innocent people is wrong, but we do the same thing to protect our way of life, and it has nothing to do with religion.

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Hey, more static

That is not my intention. You say you want to understand religion, I'm saying this meme thing won't help, it's more complicated than that.

[Qfwfq]

Eudoxus, on 21 March 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

Except that these violent religious folks vote, and vote against the liberties that my ancestors died to give us. They seek to destroy the system that makes life good for everyone else. In other places violently religious people are dictators and use their religion to justify, and get away with, the oppression of women, the destruction of civil liberties, and even plan, straight-up mass murder.

You are assuming that this is the effect, religion causes it and is its only cause.

The cause of those things is in human nature. So is that of religion. Very often religion is abused for those purposes. Most of all, you don't solve those problems by trying to prove that religion is false. Further, you will never succeed in proving this to all the perpetrators of those troubles. What undertaking will you embark upon after that, anyhow? Eliminating every specimen of all pathogens in the biosphere?

This post has been edited by Qfwfq: 21 March 2012 - 02:34 PM
Reason for edit: ooops!

[Qfwfq]

bravox, on 21 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Why can't you be honest and say you are actually afraid of Islam? I don't know any Christian, Buddhist or Hindu society where those things happen.

This is the thing you say which I disagree with.

Methods vary and they have changed through history, there are subtle differences and the whole thing is very complicated and always depends on who is on the defensive. Today the focus is on Islam, especially as people don't see similarities with past and present occurrences and stand by their own point of view.

[bravox]

Qfwfq, on 21 March 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Quote

Why can't you be honest and say you are actually afraid of Islam? I don't know any Christian, Buddhist or Hindu society where those things happen.

This is the thing you say which I disagree with.

I should have said "where those things are happening today". I'm not arguing for the superiority of any creed (although Hinduism seems to have a good record of being non-violent)

[Eudoxus]

bravox, on 21 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Dangerously? Where do you live, Afghanistan?

Just the southern US, until recently, where not accepting Jesus can get you ostracized, your car vandalized, and bricks thrown through your window. Try living in Mississippi as an atheist, mate.

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The best way to understand religion is to join a church. Seriously. As an outsider, you can only have a misinformed opinion.

I've been in many churches. Do you really think many people in the US start as atheists? No. I was born into a Christian family, had Christian friends (of various creeds), have been to Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, and Methodist services and spoken to adherents to many more sects, as well as Muslims, Jews, and Wiccans.

Quote

You mean, they vote republican? What's the problem? If you don't like democracy you can always move to China.

(I'm assuming you're American. It seems it's mostly Americans who have this irrational fear of religion)

Nice framing of the question. Republican politics are almost defined by the views of the churches, at least as far as social politics go. The Republican party isn't something that just existed, and then the religious decided, "Hey, this is a good thing."

The very religious on both sides of the party lines are among the most anti-democratic and anti-civil liberties in the US government, in my estimation at least.

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Why can't you be honest and say you are actually afraid of Islam?

Sigh.

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I don't know any Christian, Buddhist or Hindu society where those things happen. And need I point out that the greatest genocide in human history was promoted by an officially atheist regime? (I'm talking about the USSR)

You must be very young. Don't you remember Ireland? As for Buddhism: http://rupeenews.com...ave-terrorists/ And for Hinduism, your history classes must not have covered the bloody conflicts that occurred during the separation of India and Pakistan.

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May I suggest a trip to India? Mexico perhaps? How about Thailand?

In any of those places you can learn a lot about "crazy beliefs" coexisting peacefully with modern science. As a bonus you can have a good time.

Mexico and Thailand aren't exactly hotbeds of cutting edge scientific research. And in India you will find that many people practice the traditions, but have little real belief, in Hinduism, at least in the cities and especially in the universities.

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I agree. Problem is, the fellow with the bomb strapped to his chest also believed in live and let live. He died believing he was defending his people's way of life.

The difference is that his religion tells him that the civilians killed by his actions are of no concern, that they are an acceptable price to be paid. His religion tells him his actions are justified. If I were defending my peoples' way of life with violence, I would not use so indiscriminate a killing tool as a bomb. I would use a rifle. And every accidental civilian death would weigh enormously on my conscience. I do not try to justify the killing of innocent civilians.

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That is not my intention. You say you want to understand religion, I'm saying this meme thing won't help, it's more complicated than that.

Here's something you may not understand.

When trying to understand a complicated system, you start by creating simpler systems that account for some of the data. You test which systems have descriptive and predictive value and the more successful systems become more elaborated and incorporate successful parts of otherwise unsuccessful systems. By this process you narrow down your models by discarding faulty ones and preserving and merging successful ones to arrive at a unified, successful theory.

It's a part of the scientific method in the broader sense, in case you didn't know.

The idea of religion as a memetic "disease" or "virus" has some descriptive value; I'll need to conduct experiments to see if it has predictive value. It's not a perfect model, but it does show some utility so far.

[Turtle]

good grief. rather than go about quoting y'all, i'll presume readers have read the thread and get my drift.

#1) i see 840,000,000 results @google for "religion as a meme", so it's not like the idea is some recent hairball coughed up here at our humble science forum.

#2) in the past & on the whole i really didn't give a rat's ass about believers at least to the degree to bother to decry them. i was raised christian and read in & about other holy books on my own & at the collegiate level lo these many years. for all intents & purposes i have been an atheist since young adulthood. (more of my life is behind me than before me.) my immediate "problem" is religion here on the science forum (which i joined to discuss Science) where i have seen in the past 7 years no end of believers joining up to bash science. i suspect, but cannot prove, that few atheists sign up to religious forums to bash them, so that makes the believers trouble makers in my mind at the very least.

#3) yes a lot of the fooflaw over this is in the US, but as i am in the US and see believers periodically bombing abortion clinics, attempting to legislate the teaching of religion (creationism) as science, promoting religion (say christianity) as the basis of law, demeaning and legislating against women, gays, and lesbians, science, secularism, and yada yada yada, i have to again conclude believers are the ones making trouble, notwithstanding that many believers are not of that ilk.

#4) Hindus do not get a (historical) push.

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Members of lndia’s Thuggee sect strangled people as sacrifices to appease the bloodthirsty goddess Kali, a practice beginning in the 1500s. The number of victims has been estimated to be as high as 2 million. Thugs were claiming about 20,000 lives a year in the 1800s until British rulers stamped them out. At a trial in 1840, one Thug was accused of killing 931 people. Today, some Hindu priests still sacrifice goats to Kali.

source @ listverse

#5) we have a thread that addresses the "whys & wherefores" of religious belief as best as modern science has been able to pin it down. >> Biotheology (link to last post). you're welcome.

#6) a witty word from a noted republican which those of today might attend.

Quote

It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as it is apt to lead to Infidelity.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Manford's Magazine, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 144

source

#7) to you believers. i kindly don't swim in your toilet; kindly don't piss in my pool.

This post has been edited by Turtle: 21 March 2012 - 07:58 PM

[Rade]

There was a request early in this thread for experimental data on the relationship between neural process and memetic replication and storage. See this link, the claim is made that such a relationship can be measured:

http://www.frontiers...2011.00001/full

[sigurdV]

bravox, on 21 March 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

Why does religion have to be explained, in terms of memes or whatever? Does anybody attempt to "explain" science? What if science is a memetic "disease"? Who cares?

I find it amusing that religion is such a constant topic in forums like this. I don't understand why people who aren't religious worry about it so much. I don't like vegetarianism, rap music, marijuana, I think those things are detrimental to a person's mental or physical health, but I don't stretch my mind trying to figure out why people enjoy those things. Whatever floats their boat. Why does it matter?

Now of course someone will say that religion is harmful to society, look at the Twin Towers, the Inquisition, the Crusades, Galileo, yada-yada. As if humans would suddenly become perfectly moral if it weren't for their irrational beliefs. Ironically, since most religions provide an explanation why humans are so morally corrupt, the problem must have existed before those religions were developed.

I say, let people believe what they want, do not try to rationalize away their thoughts since you are not inside their minds. Do not assume you're an atheist because you are so smart, because that is absolutely not true. The world is full of smart believers and stupid atheists.

Perhaps you would care to make a list of what should be explained so we have something to guide us?

Im thinking of "Jonestown" a place somewhere in South America where a prophet "Mr Jones" gathered his followers ...

Only to make them all sucide!

You dont feel a need for an explanation do you? -Let people believe what they want!