[Boerseun]

I don't want to attack or defend homosexuality, but...

Read up on a study done a while ago where a bunch of mice was enclosed in a 10sq meter space, with enough food and water regardless of population size. Needless to say, they thrived, bred, multiplied, and in a very short while there was hundreds of them. Then thousands. Keep in mind, food was never a problem. So, overpopulation ensued.
Now - the interesting thing is that the heavier the population pressure became, the more males started having sex with other males and ignored the females completely. Females started having sex with other females as well, which could be a dominance thing. They repeated the test with monkeys, with the same result, as well as a spectacular increase in violence.
Now - could this be applied to human societies, where homosexuality and violence (think gang-warfare, etc.) occur mostly (not exclusively, though) in large cities? If that's the case, aren't psychologists digging up the wrong tree when they speculate on what happened in childhood that could turn a person gay, or blame it on the individual's genetic makeup, even?
Interesting...

[Fishteacher73]

Most all organisms require a minimum amount of physical space irregardless of other issues. Populations have an optimum desity. There have been studies that link various physical variations amongst homosexuals (hypothalamus size for example).
This would imply that homosexuality only occurs in densly populated areas. This is not the case... Look at Canada...it's not that densly populated and it's pretty gay... , but joking aside... This just not ring true. There have been societies that had no homosexuality taboo (such as ancient Greece) that did not have the population densities that we see today without the resultant spike in homosexuality...

[Biochemist]

Boerseun said:

....a bunch of mice was enclosed in a 10sq meter space...overpopulation ensued....males started having sex with other males... Females started having sex with other females as wel...They repeated the test with monkeys, with the same result

Really interesting Boer. Do you have the reference to either the mouse or the monkey study?

[bumab]

Interesting, Beor, but I've got to go with Fish. Genetics has been linked pretty solidly as well. Genetic experiments in bees has "turned them gay," with no mention of population density increases.

[Boerseun]

I don't doubt that genetics plays a major role in homosexuality. I just think there might be other circumstances that might enforce either a dormant tendency towards homosexuality, or bring it about by itself.

The study was referred to by Sagan in "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors", a very fine read, and he does give the proper referral in the index. I just need to look in the boxes in the garage (I just moved house) and I'll post it.

I've read about the ancient Greeks, and I suppose that just goes to show that genetics is not the only factor - social circumstances, wether conscious (Greek indifference towards homosexuality) or unconscious (overpopulation) might also play a big role.

[Buffy]

There have been lots of theories posited on this topic, and the referenced studies provide good evidence that there are genes that have developed over time that enhance the survival of species who have a homosexual gene. To argue with several of you though, once a gene is developed, it does *not* require the environmental stress to be re-expressed, its *there*. Maintaining a 5%-10% (pick your number based on your political beliefs) of the population with the homosexual gene active would be healthy for the population at points where environmental stresses occur, and that's what we observe. I don't think the conclusion that the studies prove that only under stress is this gene expressed is valid. It does mean that being in the closet may not be an entirely human trait!

Cheers,
Buffy

[Turtle]

___It may have something to do with cities offering a better chance for finding a gay partner.

[Buffy]

Turtle said:

___It may have something to do with cities offering a better chance for finding a gay partner.

...or rednecks in the boonies who find a dwindling supply of other minorities to shoot at driving them out...

"Why are you calling him a cigarette?",
Buffy

[Dark Mind]

Fishteacher73 said:

There have been studies that link various physical variations amongst homosexuals (hypothalamus size for example).

Are there any other physical traits, that you know of, that have been linked to homosexuality?

I have a feeling that in societies as large as ours (all humans), there are some people who are predisposed to being homosexual, and also that there are some homosexuals who just choose to like people of the same sex. The environment that the person grows up in is bound to play a role in this to a certain extent, but just how far? We may never know...


Any homosexuals here who want to help us out? (Remember, this is a science forum. Typically, in a science forum, people are far less prejudiced against homosexuality and accept most everything with an open mind, whether or not they agree with it may be another issue altogether though. Intolerance shall not be tolerated!! )

[Fishteacher73]

The only physical trait that I have seen any studies deals with only the hypothalamus. That being said I am sure that there may be various chemical variances, ie hormonal levels, etc. But this does seem to fit in with my view of the nature/nurture argument. Genes play the role of defining the range in which certain traits are expressed and nurture pinpoints the exacting outcome (and even more so in certain areas such as mental development that occur as a child is growing and there have been many examples of environmental factors altering mental abilities).

[Dark Mind]

Well that explained that rather well.
I can't say I fully agree with your last statement, although it is very close to what I believe. Oh well, I guess I'll only find out if I become gay. (not happy...)

[Fishteacher73]

Fishteacher73 said:

Genes play the role of defining the range in which certain traits are expressed and nurture pinpoints the exacting outcome (and even more so in certain areas such as mental development that occur as a child is growing and there have been many examples of environmental factors altering mental abilities).

That line? Just take a look at psychological assays of negelected and abused children... There are tons of consequences in terms of mental development and negelect.

[Boerseun]

Interesting, Buffy. But I doubt very much if a homosexual gene is beneficial to a given population.
If we assume two exclusive states, namely heterosexual (only copulates with the opposite sex), and homosexual (only copulates with the same sex), it should be obvious that any given homosexual individual will not pass his/her genes on. Therefore, if homosexuality is inherited, homosexuals must go back in the closet every now and then, if only for procreation.
I think if there is a inherited homosexual gene, it is probably suppressed for a generation or two, before eventually being expressed in one or more of the carrier's offspring.
Or, then again, we might be presumptious; there might be a specific gene for straightness!

[Biochemist]

Buffy said:

There have been lots of theories posited on this topic, and the referenced studies provide good evidence that there are genes that have developed over time that enhance the survival of species who have a homosexual gene. ...

I have to mention that I have only read about a half dozen of these studies, but generally the studies really poorly support the thesis that homosexuality is genetic. The popular reviews of the primary studies are ALWAYS much more definitive that the underlying studies are. We should start a thread on that topic alone, since it is more of a study on media bias than it is for genetic predisposition of homosexuality.

[Queso]

this concept makes sense if you think about prison. very crouded small space....i've never been, but from what i heard.. people do gay things in there.