[Tormod]

Sorry to derail this thread but I wanted to follow up Sanctus' reply.

I was a conscientious objector as well. I also had to go to answer for myself, but no commission - only a bored police woman in her office here in Oslo. She had a standard set of questions to ask, and was apparently embarrassed that she had to ask them. This was only skin deep, though, because she did ask some follow-up or test questions which showed she despised my choice.

Anyway, one question from her papers, which I knew I would get because it is infamous, is: "You are driving in your car and you are being threatened by someone sitting in the passenger seat. His gun is lying between the two of you. Would you pick it up and threaten him?"

Sheesh. I ditched the army because of questions like that. It is a trick question, because if you answer yes, you are not a pacifist in their eyes, and therefore cannot be a conscientious objector.

Pacifism is the only grounds for denying military service in Norway. But being a conscientious onbjector has nothing to do with pacifism. They are related but one does not necessarily include the other. A pacifist may do army service (for example in the underground press, as a nurse or a truck driver) and a conscientious objector might be willing to carry guns in a different setting. It is the role of the military I was opposed to. I am opposed to the idea of having thousands and thousands of men and women trained to kill and serve in rank and file when there are so many other, important things to take care of. I asked to do civil service instead and got it, but the service I did had nothing to do with "peaceful purposes" which is what I wanted.

Would I pick up arms to defend something if needed? Probably, but it depends. Guns would not be my first thought. I have not even touched a gun in my entire life so it's a difficult question to answer.

[eMTee]

God's love reach further than the wicked will of man...and God's salvation is for the murderer as well as for the hero. Let's not look at the evil past of a person to determin things, lets look at the change in their lives. God puts great people in positions, but if you look back in their lives, you might find a hardened heart in their past.

I'm not a Catholic, and I do think that they place the position of the pope too high, and they place more work in rituals rather than in Christ and faith.

[C1ay]

eMTee said:

God puts great people in positions...

People like Hitler, Hussein, Genghis Khan, Caesar, etc.....

[Tormod]

C1ay said:

People like Hitler, Hussein, Genghis Khan, Caesar, etc.....

Bush, Blair, Berlusconi, Putin...

[C1ay]

Some God, huh?

[eMTee]

Clay said:

People like Hitler, Hussein, Genghis Khan, Caesar, etc.....

do you not know what I mean? I'm refering to the Church, and I'm refering to people who stand up for morals, who are marders for Christ

By the way, you are correct about all of those. But sence you like to make fun of God, you wouldn't understand my explaination to my faith and God's love, but sence you want to be against Christianity, your hatered makes you see the way you do. I don't mean to act in a way that you will see as an anoyence. or to make myself look puffed up.

[C1ay]

eMTee said:

but sence you want to be against Christianity...

Ah yes, the faith that says, "you must believe what we believe or go to hell". <sarcasm>What a loving, tolerant faith...</sarcasm>NOT!!!

[bumab]

Tormod, sanctus- Good for you guys! It's good to hear people taking the not-so-easy path and doing what they feel is right. Compulsary service isn't an issue here (yet), so we don't have to worry about those questions so far.

[Fishteacher73]

eMTee said:

do you not know what I mean? I'm refering to the Church, and I'm refering to people who stand up for morals, who are marders for Christ

These "morals" always seem to be able to be ignored when they do "their god's" work. Morals always seem to be an absolute, unless it is inconveinent. Do you tithe? Do you not have sex with a woman who is on her cycle [the same set of verses that bans homosexuality]? Do you not eat meat on friday? Do you not suffer a witch to live?

[eMTee]

The only moral that you mentioned was "Do you not have sex with a woman who is on her cycle" but I would change the "on her cycle" into "out of wed-lock" I dont know what you ment about the witch. Give me the erses out of the Bible that says these things?

[zadojla]

sanctus said:

Zadojla, are you checking if I'm coherent?

Consistent, actually, but yes.
In Nazi Germany, I understand the usual fate of conscientious objectors was to be sent to a concentration camp, a rather different adminstrative process than you or Tormod endured. My point is that most people try to get through difficult times by keeping a low profile, which means doing what's expected but only the minimum. Doing so may be cowardly or lazy, but is not necessarily evil.
To make this even, I should say I cannot be a conscientious objector or a pacifist. I can easily imagine circumstances where I would kill someone, even premeditated. However, the war I would have fought in, Vietnam, was a bad, stupid, war. I resisted by manipulating the rules as much as I could to avoid military service. I was successful, partly by luck. I also think Iraq is a bad, stupid, war, as do nearly half of Americans.

[Boerseun]

eMTee said:

The only moral that you mentioned was "Do you not have sex with a woman who is on her cycle" but I would change the "on her cycle" into "out of wed-lock" I dont know what you ment about the witch. Give me the erses out of the Bible that says these things?

You are also supposed to kill homosexuals by stoning them to death. This practice in still being followed in Northern Nigeria, much to the indignation of the rest of the world. They're just following their laws, and they should be commended by believers everywhere.

Raising sex during a menstrual cycle as a moral issue, as far as I'm concerned, is wrong - this should be classified under "hygiene". Although the Bible would have you believe different.

Tell me eMTee, when last have you stoned a fag?

[belovelife]

i wonder if the pope has as much honor as someone like myself?
just the average joe, searching for truth and spirit in a world of water , air, stone and fire