[Michaelangelica]

Another website with a worrying comment
http://www.wired.com...2,64871,00.html

Day, along with researchers at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, Oak Ridge National Laboratory and the Georgia Institute of Technology, is developing technology based on the carbon-rich Terra Preta concept that uses charcoal to absorb greenhouse gases at facilities that burn fossil fuels. The charcoal is then mixed with other nutrients to create a super fertilizer, according to Day.

Day said that to create the charcoal that could be used as fertilizer, the biomass must be burned at temperatures somewhat lower than usual (say, 250 to 300 degrees Celsius).

"It's not the stuff you use in your barbecue," he said, noting that microbes in the nutrients bind the carbon to the mixture, preventing it from being released into the air or leeched into the ground for up to 5,000 years.

The charcoal fertilizer could be used to restore the nutrients in areas around the globe where soil has been depleted, according to Day. He believes charcoal-enhanced soil could increase crop yields by 200 percent to 300 percent.

Eprida has performed a demonstration of the scrubbing process, and Day said the next step is to develop a biomass processing plant adjacent to a coal power plant to test the technology on a large scale.

But Galen Suppes, associate professor of chemical engineering at the University of Missouri-Columbia, said he has "low regard" for technologies that claim to reduce greenhouse gases by turning them into solids.

"I don't believe that the product you are turning into carbon is going to stay in the ground. Five years down the line, it's back in the atmosphere," he said. "In a lot of this technology you are just playing games with the carbon.... Sometimes it breaks down very quickly, and sometimes not."

Johannes Lehmann, assistant professor in the Department of Soil Fertility Management and Soil Biogeochemistry at Cornell University, however, said the carbon has been retained in the soil at the Terra Preta sites in South America for up to 3,000 years.

I was concerned about this comment-
"Day said that to create the charcoal that could be used as fertilizer, the biomass must be burned at temperatures somewhat lower than usual (say, 250 to 300 degrees Celsius)"

So what is a home gardener to do?
When is charchol not charchol?
Today I spent a futile hour tring to buy charchol to mix into my potting mix.
One nursery had a kilo or so for $7
Another had activated chjarcol for fish tanks - imported from Japan -for abou$10 for 500grams
I had purchased a largish 5K? bag of BBQ charchol from the local supermarket, crushed this up and used it (about $7). Now they no longer stock it (It was imported from Malaysia)
Where my efforts in vain given the above comment?
Any thoughts?

On microrganisms I have found an Australian source of a Japanese mix;
but was very intersted in this marijuana web site which had a nice long discussion on brewing your own microbrial tea
SEE:
http://www.marijuana...hp?loc=30&id=23
That link does't seem to get me to the page (I have printed-although google gives the same address? help?)
Basically the author recommended a "beginners' recipe for making a compost tea
20% sugar
10% yeast extract
10% kelp meal
compost
+
oxygen
Leave in a vat for acouple of weeks and it will grow into a nice tea"

[Charcoal]

Turtle said:

I made an observation today we haven't brought up, nor did I hear mentioned in the show or links. Even mixed in the soil, some of the charcoal stays on the surface & so warms the soil in sunlight more than if it weren't there. Noticed it when I got nose to seedling with my radish seedlings this afternoon.

Soil temperature measurements were made in Brazil and they found that soil temperature is lower (at least in the tropics) if covered with charcoal. Charcoal keeps some insolating adjectives from the wood. It is a very interesting material. Soil moisture is higher too. The effect was similar to soil covered with grass.

[Charcoal]

Activated charcoal is produced with high temperature and the conversion efficiency is low (carbon in biomass to carbon in charcoal). It is used as an adsorbent. Bio-char is charcoal produced at lower temperatures (with ~50% c yield). The pH, adsorbing capacity, poor size and structure of charcoal is temperature dependent and so is the effect on certain crops and soils. Charcoal applications can be optimized. Some charcoals (peanut shell) contain plant nutrients others not. For us to study the "charcoal effect" charcoal without or only low nutrient contents are the interesting ones.

[Charcoal]

[quote name='Michaelangelica']So would Amazonian Natives have access to 'activated carbon'? Would the temperatures in pottery kilns be high enough to make the charcoal become activated? the research doesn't seem to make clear what sort of carbon we are talking about.
If 'activated' has more cavities; wouldn't this be a good thing?

Terra preta is more than only charcoal. Charcoal and maybe the pottery perhaps favored a special microbial community. The Terra Preta fertility (pH 6-7, very high P and Ca contents) are mainly due to bones. Besides charcoal, Terra Preta contains lots of bones from fish, animals and supposedly humans too.

[Charcoal]

I'm not sure I undersatand how Hydrogen gets into the equasion?[/QUOTE]

www.eprida.com

~ 50% of the hydrogen produced today is used for ammonia (NH4) production. With increasing fossil energy prices nitrogen fertilizer (ammonia) gets more expensive. The Eprida carbon cycle produces hydrogen from any biomass source. Hydrogen is used for GTL-diesel, N-fertilizer and charcoal. The charcoal combined with ammonia will act as a slow release fertilizer.

[SoilWatcher]

Michaelangelica said:

Another website with a worrying comment
http://www.wired.com...2,64871,00.html

I was concerned about this comment-
"Day said that to create the charcoal that could be used as fertilizer, the biomass must be burned at temperatures somewhat lower than usual (say, 250 to 300 degrees Celsius)"

So what is a home gardener to do?
When is charchol not charchol?

Indeed, it does seem to be necessary to do it at low temperature. It is assumed they used smoldering burning piles, putting brush or dirt on top to keep it from burning too hot.

Here's something more about it:

http://www.eprida.co...o/yahoo2004.htm

Low temperature woody charcoal (not grass or high cellulose) has an
interior layer of bio-oil condensates that microbes consume and is
equal to glucose in its effect on microbial growth (Christoph Steiner,
EACU 2004). High temp char loses this layer and does not promote soil
fertility very well. ... Evidence of terra preta's ability to
grow and sequester more carbon was undercovered by soil scientist
William Woods (U.Illinois). The work is still under investigation in
Brazil by over the last 20 years mining terra preta for potting soil
has not decreased its availability. Farmers have learned it recovers a
centimeter per year. The possibility those small fractions of char
continually migrate down, providing housing for microbes as they
process surface-cover biomass. The microbes and fungi live and die
inside the porous media increasing its carbon content.

[Racoon]

This thread is Way Cool!

SuperDirt!
Its ironic that members named Soilwatcher and Charcoal are jumping in.

This info has been great. Soil productivity is crucial to survival...

MichealAngelica, posted a nice link,
http://www.marijuana...hp?loc=30&id=23
But I couldn't access the info either. I think you need to register.

If anyone knows alot about dirt, its Pot Growers!
Not that I'm trying to cultivate; that would be illegal...

I need to look for some Charcoal around here. It is pretty spendy (for the kind you weed, errrr need.)
Turtle? where do you recommend purchasing some around our area?

Great job dudes!
From one Herb and Vegetable and Flower and Bonzai Gardner,
Racoon

[Turtle]

Racoon said:

This thread is Way Cool!

SuperDirt!
Its ironic that members named Soilwatcher and Charcoal are jumping in.

Turtle? where do you recommend purchasing some around our area?

Great job dudes!
From one Herb and Vegetable and Flower and Bonzai Gardner,
Racoon

Cool indeed!
I bought 2 bags of "Horticultural Charcoal" from Whitney Farms at the Fred Meyer garden center. Each bag is 2 dry quarts (2.2 litres) & cost about $4 US. It is rather large chunks in the 1/2" range.
Here is some info on building a parabolic trough solar oven for making your own charcoal (not activated charcoal).


http://hypography.co...science-13.html

Turtle said:

I found a description of a simple solar furnace for making charcoal & I think I may have a go at it on a small scale.
Here is the link & some quotes that prompted the new direction:
http://www.bidstrup.com/carbon.htm

[Racoon]

Turtle said:

I bought 2 bags of "Horticultural Charcoal" from Whitney Farms at the Fred Meyer garden center. Each bag is 2 dry quarts (2.2 litres) & cost about $4 US. It is rather large chunks in the 1/2" range.

Do those bags of Whitney "Horticulture Charcoal" need to be put in an oven, or is it good to go after a bout with mortar and pestal?

[Turtle]

Racoon said:

Do those bags of Whitney "Horticulture Charcoal" need to be put in an oven, or is it good to go after a bout with mortar and pestal?

No need for oven. From what I have gathered from these articles you don't want 'activated charcoal' for making these terra preta soils & you do want (need?) to crush it up. Some sources say you need 20% to 40% charcoal by volume to get the microbes churning & happy.
The solar oven is low temp (about 450deg F they said) & you shove in your garden waste instead of composting it.

[Turtle]

Went to hardware store & bought a 2 foot length of 4" sheet-metal pipe, a cap for same, & a can of high temp flat-blkack paint. I plan to make a template & 'ribs' of corrugated paper (cardboard) for the parabolic reflector, then line it with mylar covered posterboard for my trough reflector.
___Cost so far, $10 US. I have the mylar (survival blanket) & plenty of corrugated stock from moving boxes. I almost bought a thermometer, but I think I can use our cooking one. While I wrok on the reflector & after the paint dries on the tube, I have in mind to stuff the tube with debris & see what goes with it in the Sun sans reflector.
___Having too much fun!

[Racoon]

Turtle said:

Went to hardware store & bought a 2 foot length of 4" sheet-metal pipe, a cap for same, & a can of high temp flat-blkack paint. I plan to make a template & 'ribs' of corrugated paper (cardboard) for the parabolic reflector, then line it with mylar covered posterboard for my trough reflector.
___Cost so far, $10 US. I have the mylar (survival blanket) & plenty of corrugated stock from moving boxes. I almost bought a thermometer, but I think I can use our cooking one. While I wrok on the reflector & after the paint dries on the tube, I have in mind to stuff the tube with debris & see what goes with it in the Sun sans reflector.
___Having too much fun!

Ok,
So you paint the metal pipe.
Wrap it in mylar (emergency blanket) - on the outside?
Then stuff the debris inside.
And let it bake...? How long does it take - to bake?
how hot does it need to get?

I should probably re-read the links, but asking you is easier...

[Turtle]

Racoon said:

Ok,
So you paint the metal pipe.
Wrap it in mylar (emergency blanket) - on the outside?
Then stuff the debris inside.
And let it bake...? How long does it take - to bake?
how hot does it need to get?

I should probably re-read the links, but asking you is easier...

___No no! Do not wrap pipe in mylar! Pipe is supported at the focus of the parabolic trough reflector; the mylar is the relecting material. I will make a drawing as the links provide none.
___

[Racoon]

Turtle said:

___No no! Do not wrap pipe in mylar! Pipe is supported at the focus of the parabolic trough reflector; the mylar is the relecting material. I will make a drawing as the links provide none.
___

That would be most helpful, Turtle-san.
I think I understand a little better now.

I was a little confused by the description.
Your help is much appreciated, when you can manage the time...

Muchas Gracias.

ps. I am glad you found the bearing you needed for the wagon!

[Turtle]

Racoon said:

That would be most helpful, Turtle-san.
I think I understand a little better now.

I was a little confused by the description.
Your help is much appreciated, when you can manage the time...

Muchas Gracias.

Here's a link to a general description of a trough parabolic reflector; in our case the 'glass envelope' is replaced with the 'black-painted metal tube'.
http://www.industria...om/abttrghs.htm