[GAHD]

salts get used, salts get trapped, and salts also sink. Salts that get to the bottom get used by natural reactions in locations with heat and exposed magma. The same basic laws of nature are used by people in smelters to purify metal.

[jkellmd]

Erasmus00 said:

Many of the people doing the dating are not, in fact, biologists. Also, science is not some conspiracy to war against faith. Many scientists (biologists included) are religious, many are christian.
-Will

True, true. Copernicus was a Catholic priest, almost a bishop. Indeed, in the entire history of western thought, what professed atheist ever rose to significant prominence between the times of Galen and Nietzsche (1700 odd years)?

But that is neither here nor there. A thinking man has to view the evidence. Until more accurate tests become available, we have to accept the inaccuacies of those we have now (which are still overwhelmingly supported by the weight of all of the evidence). If we can agree that the current combined methods of scientific dating is likely to be accurate to within an order of magnitude (or even two), Goku's argument is moot. As far as this conversation is concerned, what's an extra zero here or there? Use the bible for what it's good for - living your life, not for dating the universe or critiquing scientific evidence.

Leaving scientific inquiry to scientists should not negate your belief. Rather than uselessly trying to refute what does not fit with what you think of God, see the beauty evident in evolution, biology, chemistry and physics - there's plenty of it. How can you claim to understand God or his creation is by reading only a single book? Find a pattern in the way things are designed; that is the foundation of all inquiry. If you wish to see the creator, Goku, study the creation.

[goku]

i'd like to see someone take a piece of bone from an animal that the birth date is known, and, date it useing all the current methods

[jkellmd]

goku said:

i'd like to see someone take a piece of bone from an animal that the birth date is known, and, date it useing all the current methods

In their efforts to debunk the Shroud of Turin, scientists used one of the capes of Loius XIII (or XV, I forget), which was made from a material known to be of the same age. Unfortunately, we don't have any materials much older than this, at least any that we're willing to destroy in order to provide corroberative dates to every rock and bone that we find. Scientists have to extrapolate beyond those dates. Radiocarbon dating, by itself, is not considered to be accurate beyond 40k years or so, so other systems are used(ice cores, changes in the earth's magnetic field, etc).

[CraigD]

goku said:

i'd like to see someone take a piece of bone from an animal that the birth date is known, and, date it useing all the current methods

If you’re willing to spend around $300, you can get your wish from any of many labs providing the service (a list of labs, with contact info, can be found at http://www.radiocarbon.org/Info). The lab will tell you how to prepare and ship the sample.

Radiocarbon dating can only estimate time since death, so you’d want to compare the estimates to the animals known date of death, not birth.

[Rincewind]

rockytriton said:

I'm still trying to figure out what "ruffly" means, I don't see it in the dictionary

It means in the manner of a decorative collar of Elizabethan England.

[Rincewind]

jkellmd said:

If you wish to see the creator, study the creation.

Well said.

[LOC]

goku said:

so if i put some salt water in a glass and let it set the salt will settle to the bottom?

Nature has no problem removing salt from the oceans, it is taken out of the sea via marine sedimentary deposition. In other words, salt is deposited on the ocean floor along with carbonate (limestone), clay (shale), etc.; and I believe some rocks, like shales, tend to be more saline-rich than others. In addition, shales are scavengers of a whole host of other things such as arsenic, mercury, and selenium.

As a result, continental exposure, weathering, and erosion of some shales leads to the release and transport of these elements and molecules via surface and ground water systems. The Colorado River is today experiencing a salinity and selenium problem due primarily to the large amount of black shale outcropping within its river basin.

And if you know anything about how deleterious salinity is to agriculture, wildlife, humans; and then couple that with how scarce water is in the western half of the United States, you will understand what a serious problem this is.

YECism can't even come close to helping scientists understand how to deal with these sorts of issues. If it did, you can bet your bottom dollar we'd be using YEC models instead of old earth ones.

[LOC]

goku said:

i'd like to see someone take a piece of bone from an animal that the birth date is known, and, date it useing all the current methods

If you're referring to dating something like a dead deer found on the side of the road, that's not possible. Dating techniques have upper and lower age limits.

[jkellmd]

LOC said:

Nature has no problem removing salt from the oceans, it is taken out of the sea via marine sedimentary deposition. In other words, salt is deposited on the ocean floor along with carbonate (limestone), clay (shale), etc.; and I believe some rocks, like shales, tend to be more saline-rich than others. In addition, shales are scavengers of a whole host of other things such as arsenic, mercury, and selenium.

As a result, continental exposure, weathering, and erosion of some shales leads to the release and transport of these elements and molecules via surface and ground water systems. The Colorado River is today experiencing a salinity and selenium problem due primarily to the large amount of black shale outcropping within its river basin.

Informative and compelling, LOC; Thanks!

[Tormod]

jkellmd said:

True, true. Copernicus was a Catholic priest, almost a bishop. Indeed, in the entire history of western thought, what professed atheist ever rose to significant prominence between the times of Galen and Nietzsche (1700 odd years)?

Good question. I would say more than people imagine. Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson are probably among the most prominent Americans (although Franklin is perhaps a European-American). In Europe you are bound to find many more however and d'Holbach, Hume, Rosseau and Adam Smith are examples who predate Nietzsche.

The problem is of course that atheists were hunted down and burnt at the stake by the Inquisition or whoever was in charge of the church / politics at various times, so people like Hobbes and Marlowe denied being atheists although they most likely were.

[Rincewind]

goku said:

the simple fact is that if the earth is billions of years old the ocean would be way saltier than it is.

Really? It doesn't appear to be simple to me. How salty would it be if the Earth were billions of years old? Indeed, how salty for millions of years? In fact, how salty is it now? What units are you measuring saltiness in? What is the rate of increase in saltiness over time?

Son many things I don't even begin to understand about this.

[Science_Goooood__Math_Bad]

To sort of answer your question...I guess,
the ocean as of now is quite salty. In fact it has enough salt to make anyone throw up. This may sound stupid but I know, I've swollowed ocean water(and threw up) but it was an accident. Anyway I have to ask the same question: How do you measure the saltiness of ocean water?

[MortenS]

Salinity is defined as the amount of solids dissolved in 1 kg of sea water, and is often measured in parts per thousand (ppt) or practical salinity units (PSU).
The average salinity in the ocean is around 35 PSU(=PPT)

In general, salinity is measured by a CTD instrument, which measures conductivity, temperature and pressure directly.

From conductivity and temperature, you can estimate salinity, since conductivity in a solution is mainly a function of salinity and temperature.

[Boerseun]

Actually, ocean salinity isn't a very useful tool to judge the age of the planet by. Due to the Salt Balance, the salinity has been pretty stable for quite some time. All we can use it for is to judge how long it takes for the specific volume of the ocean to get as salty as it currently is, but that point could've been reached a billion years ago already.

Interesting sidenote: Back when we were still fish, sperm had a medium (seawater) in which to swim to the egg cells. Land animals had to invent a way of protecting sperm cells on their journey outside the male body to get to the egg, so they don't dry out and die. Here's the amazing bit: The salinity, conductivity and pH of sexual fluids is identical to that of seawater. And it's been a couple 'o million years since we've last been at sea!