[hallenrm]

We all know/believe that all the information necessary for the birth and development of an organism is contained in the nucleotide sequences of its chromosomal DNA. But is that the absolute truth? Are there other sources of information that determine its development?

Darwin vs. Lamarck??

[Racoon]

yes, Hallen.

It called experience and life!
Nature and "Nurture"

You are a deep and thoughtful person.
I shall ponder this a bit further in my sleep...

[Eclogite]

There are certainly heritable features that are independent of, or act upon, the chromosomal DNA. The study of these mechanisms is called epigenetics.

There is a reasonable overview, with several interesting links, on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Epigenetics


“One day, perhaps, we shall apologise to Lamarck for our incredulity.”

[hallenrm]

Thanks Eclogite:) for the food you gave for further thought, I glanced through the link you indicated in your reply, I think it will be very useful for giving direction to my random thought!!!

Thanks once again!!!

[hallenrm]

Well, I am better read now, I have gone through the wikipedia article on epigenetic (indicated on this thread, coutsey Ecoglite), Thought over it overnight and ready with new thoughts and questions on this subject.

The epigenetics referred to on wikipedia is "is the transmission of information from a cell or multicellular organism to its descendants without that information being encoded in the nucleotide sequence of the gene. This information, rather, can be stored as methylation on a nucleotide base, without changing the base sequence."

But,..... to my mind that is only a very small part of the subject. Assumed in this idea is the paradigm that the developent of an embryo to a fetus in the mother womb, is as if it were isolated system, but that is indeed far from truth. The fetus develops inside the body of the mother and is affected by many chemicals (say hormones) and may be other micro organisms, (say HIV). Well, we do know that a child can inherit AIDS from his/her parents. Isn't that extrachromosomal information.

The conception of a new organism itself is subject to the exact mental state of its parents, which is determined by the level of various hormones in their body. That is an additional information that a fetus is subject to!!! After all, there must a common factor amongst the parents of all great human beings (and so also the parents of social outcasts).

I think, the post is getting long, so i will stop here for the time being, but to the visitor readers I promise I will be back soon with new thoughts on the subject.

[Racoon]

Are you perhaps suggesting Hallen?:
Say you have 2 sets of parents pregnant w/ relatively similar DNA...

#1) rubs mothers belly, talks softly to unborn, plays nice music, exercises, happy environment, and so on...

while conversely,

#2) more stress in environment, stomach gets bumped around a bit, bad language, poorer "spiritual" connections, etc...

Has an effect on the baby's development and growth? regardless of DNA similarities?
Very interesting; IF in fact that is what you might be trying to articulate...

[hallenrm]

Thanks Racoon, I was in fact expecting your reply:)

Yes may be!! and much more, a contemplative intellectual couple vesus a passionate sexual couple. Obviously, the levels of certain hormones in their system will be different. Again, mutaually loving and consenting parents versus parents, one of whom is particularly not interested in the act;) again levels of hormones!!!

Besides all this, a parent suffering from a microbial infection at the moment of conception versus healthy and happy couple.

What I am hinting at, is scientific research, which would be perhaps impossible by the present technology. Imagine monitoring the hormone levels of couple when they are about to conceive:D

But perhaps it may be possible one day:) and that day the biology of today would be outdated:phones:

[Racoon]

hallenrm said:

a contemplative intellectual couple vesus a passionate sexual couple. Again, mutaually loving and consenting parents versus parents, one of whom is particularly not interested in the act;) again levels of hormones!!!

What I am hinting at, is scientific research, which would be perhaps impossible by the present technology. Imagine monitoring the hormone levels of couple when they are about to conceive:D

Aaahhhh..
Yes, that would be difficult to monitor.
The couple may not want you there watching, with your measuring instruments in the way Hallen!

Very interesting hyopthesis!
I think Yes, for a different reason than my first post now...

[hallenrm]

So, I am back with new thoughts on the subject.

Genetics as I understand from my education and contacts, is the science that studies the similarities between organisms. Its present paradigm is, that all information about the development of the organism termed phenotype, is encoded in the nucleotide sequences of its DNA molecules, whether chromosomal, mitochondial or in the chloroplast. Epigenetics is a field of study, in science, of reversible heritable changes in gene function that occur without a change in the sequence of nuclear DNA. It is also the study of the processes involved in the unfolding development of an organism. Its object of study includes how gene regulatory information that is not expressed in DNA sequences is transmitted from one generation (of cells or organisms) to the next - that is (harking back to the Greek prefix), 'in addition to' the genetic information encoded in the DNA.

Quote

In recent years, there has been rapid progress in understanding epigenetic mechanisms, which include differences in DNA methylation, as well as differences in chromatin structure involving histone modifications. Another possibility involves the genomes of cytoplasmic elements (chloroplasts and mitochondria). Other mechanisms have also been proposed. Wikipedia

Now, my thoughts begin! How is an organism, I am taking of multicellular biological organisms that have 'mind', born. We all know, it is throughth the union of an egg with a sperm, inside the mothers body, that develops into a foetus in a span of time. This process involves crossing of the genes of the parents, that leads to the new characterstics (genotype and phenotype) of the offspring. This process is akin to a chemical reaction, albeit the reactants are huge molecules and the reaction vessel is quite enigmatic. It, the vessel, is composed of many similar molecules and is also influenced by the minds of the parents.

Let me elaborate the last point a bit. The DNA molecules, like all molecules, are not just a structure of atoms, they also have energy states, vibrational, rotational and electronic. Some of these states are quite likely to be influenced by the mind of the parent of their origin. Obviously there there are factors that determine the differences between siblings. (I do not recall too many instances where the siblings of the men and women in the Hall of fame, shared the characteristics of the most famous. After all, why was the sisters and brothers of Einstein, Faraday, Davy, Eddison so unconsquential. I am trying to unravel the mystery, why only a select few people become very famous and gifted? Is it only in their genes? If no, Why didn't the Bell Laboratories, The Royal Society continued to produce Nobel Laureate. What led C. V. Raman to the Hall of fame, despite the fact that none of his parents inherited the genes of the other famed scientists?

Any takers?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

hallenrm:

Quote

What led C. V. Raman to the Hall of fame, despite the fact that none of his parents inherited the genes of the other famed scientists?

Well, perhaps because it isn't a genetic trait passed down from the parents.
I've always been of the opinion that it's accidental or, perhaps what might be more accurate, 'apparently' accidental.
Genius is the end result of perhaps very lucky choices on the part of the child. I have a problem believing we could ever identify the chemical reactions that lead to such outcomes.
What I would like to see is a discussion of the connection between aspects of reality and genes. I come from the point of view that life is basically a perception machine. Well, if that is the case, our genetic makeup must be driven by the things perceptible. Do you know of any discussions along those lines?

[hallenrm]

ldsoftwaresteve said:

.........................................
What I would like to see is a discussion of the connection between aspects of reality and genes. I come from the point of view that life is basically a perception machine. Well, if that is the case, our genetic makeup must be driven by the things perceptible. Do you know of any discussions along those lines?

Thankyou ldsoftwaresteve!!!!

I'm indeed on the look out for the same kind of discussion.

I think I can do for some help from some enlightened Hypographers, can you suggest any extra genetic source of information, that cn be an influence on the conduct/behavior/development of human beings, This factor must be other than methylation of DNA, extrachrosomal DNA (say that of mitochondria or chloroplast); nothing whatsoever linked to the DNA of a cell.

Please, think and help me!

[learnin to learn]

hallenrm said:

Thankyou ldsoftwaresteve!!!!

I'm indeed on the look out for the same kind of discussion.

I think I can do for some help from some enlightened Hypographers, can you suggest any extra genetic source of information, that cn be an influence on the conduct/behavior/development of human beings, This factor must be other than methylation of DNA, extrachrosomal DNA (say that of mitochondria or chloroplast); nothing whatsoever linked to the DNA of a cell.

Please, think and help me!

Well I am still in highschool, so I am not really that enlightened... Mitochondria would have some effect wouldnt it? Because if there was a defect in the mitchondria, wouldnt the body lack the ATP needed to perform daily tasks? What about the golgi complex????

[ldsoftwaresteve]

hallenrm:

Quote

Please, think and help me!

I wish I could but I've had no schooling in genetics nor have I done any independent study. I would suggest just one thing, considering that what you are delving into is going to be pretty complicated: make it a long haul project, i.e. take your time. There are oodles of real experts here in all sorts of areas so you've come to the right place.

Keep in mind some things on your quest: 1. our knowledge of the subject is really in its infancy and we have the habit of naming something and then assuming we understand it. Always taint your 'knowledge' with a little doubt. When we identify some characteristic of an entity remember that it is contextual, prone to some percentage of error, often arrived at too quickly, and also probably misinterpreted. So let the jewels of wisdom arrive slowly and make sure they have a 'snow white plume'. And even when you let them in, assume the white has some flaws in it, flaws that you're not able to see yet.
Oh, and beware of false prophets.... like me!

[HydrogenBond]

The mitochrondria in humans all stem from the mother. The male sperm has no mitchondria. All the mitochondria are obtained within the ovuum and divide and propagate from there.

Another thing to consider is that the genes shuffle. There are areas of the DNA that stay packed all the time. They are called junk genes, but who knows for sure. What could possibly happen is after the male and female genes combine and shuffle, new genes come to the surface and some of the expected genes end up as junk genes.

[hallenrm]

ldsoftwaresteve said:

Keep in mind some things on your quest: 1. our knowledge of the subject is really in its infancy and we have the habit of naming something and then assuming we understand it. Always taint your 'knowledge' with a little doubt. When we identify some characteristic of an entity remember that it is contextual, prone to some percentage of error, often arrived at too quickly, and also probably misinterpreted. So let the jewels of wisdom arrive slowly and make sure they have a 'snow white plume'. And even when you let them in, assume the white has some flaws in it, flaws that you're not able to see yet.
Oh, and beware of false prophets.... like me!

Thank you once again idsoftwaresteve, I will indeed try to keep yiur good advice in mind!