[Nitack]

dannieyankee said:

I do not mean to sound ignorant, but I believe (at least in the United States) this is bull.

I know I gained weight by not doing anything and eating more than I needed. I know in the United States, the culture is 'more food'. The idea is that you pay for quantity, not quality. I only wish I lived in a European country, where the idea was quality over quantity. I'd rather have really good food rather than lots of it.

This virus may exist, but it might just be a coincidence. Maybe fat people just are too lazy to wash their hands, thus more prone to disease.

BTW, I'm legally overweight, so I'm not just making fun of another group of people.

Dannie,

Not all of us think that there is some voodoo cause for obesity. Some of us (like myself) do think that the root cause is not enough movement and too much food intake. I feel that all of the other stuff posted here like viruses, bacteria, processing food, etc, do have a real effect, but they only influence one side of the energy equation (energy in vs. energy out) and do not hold the ultimate answer. Others here feel that there must be some explanation beyond just the energy in vs. energy out theory. Be warned, some people here will call you "simplistic" for daring to state that you feel that this is a problem of lifestyle and there is not some underlying cause that can be scientifically investigated and solved. And for full disclosure, I too am well overweight and got that way through my own choices and maintaining an intake of food that exceeded my daily energy needs.

[dannieyankee]

Nitack said:

Dannie,

Not all of us think that there is some voodoo cause for obesity. Some of us (like myself) do think that the root cause is not enough movement and too much food intake. I feel that all of the other stuff posted here like viruses, bacteria, processing food, etc, do have a real effect, but they only influence one side of the energy equation (energy in vs. energy out) and do not hold the ultimate answer. Others here feel that there must be some explanation beyond just the energy in vs. energy out theory. Be warned, some people here will call you "simplistic" for daring to state that you feel that this is a problem of lifestyle and there is not some underlying cause that can be scientifically investigated and solved. And for full disclosure, I too am well overweight and got that way through my own choices and maintaining an intake of food that exceeded my daily energy needs.

I sympathise with your idea that their is not ALWAYS a direct in v. out scenario; for example, certain birth controls can make women gain weight. Obviously it is no longer that simple scenario 100% - however, I believe that the large majority of people do not even realise how little energy they use. For instance, it is well known that doctors do not always believe their patients who say they 'Eat healthy and exercise but are still overweight'. People underestimate how much they eat and overesetimate how much they exercise, making them believe that there MUST not be a reason for them to be fat other than some disease or virus. I know people who tell me they always eat right and exercise - then turn around and eat a plateful of Cuban food (which, by the way, is EXTREMELY calorie-enriched) and sit in front of a computer all day. They exercise a lot because once a month they do some yardwork for 2-4 hours.

So, yes, they may call be simplistic and negative, but I prefer the more accurate term 'realistic'.

[HydrogenBond]

One of the problems that makes it harder to reduce the rate of obesity, is because science creates too many excuses. All these excuses are created by empirical science. Although empirical correlation may show useful trends in populations, it does not firmly point the finger to you, you or you. As such, if you are part of a population, you get to use the excuse even if there is no cause and effect for you as an individual.

For example, if one made a valid correlation that showed that purple people are more prone to obesity, and I am a purple person, and want to eat more, I can use this excuse and say it is in my ethnic makeup. I am covered by the umbrella. If I start to exercise and get bored I can say, why do I bother, I am purple and purple people have been shown to be bigger than other groups.

If a study could correlate auto exhaust and obesity, I could use that as an excuse to go to the big city for dining. The traffic is particularly bad today, which may explain why I crave two desserts. Empirical science organizes the data in ways where there is plenty of room under a bunch of umbrellas for people who don't belong in the world of cause and effect.

Let me give an example how the umbrella effect works. The family is planning a camping trip. Before we go, we will do a bunch of studies. One study states that particular date shows an increase incident of rain based on historical data over 100 years. A random sampling of camps sites shows there are an average of 0.1 ant hills on each site, which has doubled the risks from last year. If I don't want to go camping, but wish to stay home, I now have two good scientific excuses, which may not occur on that day on that site, when the family gets there. If we didn't have this umbrella, I would have no scientific excuse to stay home. It would look irrational.

[dannieyankee]

I quite agree, HydrogenBond. The main problem with people getting fat is that there is no one really pointing a finger at them and saying 'This is something you brought upon yourself, now do something about it'. All these excuses being generated makes it seem like it is less necessary to fix it, because it's not really your fault.

[Racoon]

HydrogenBond said:

One of the problems that makes it harder to reduce the rate of obesity, is because science creates too many excuses. All these excuses are created by empirical science. Although empirical correlation may show useful trends in populations, it does not firmly point the finger to you, you or you. As such, if you are part of a population, you get to use the excuse even if there is no cause and effect for you as an individual.

For example, if one made a valid correlation that showed that purple people are more prone to obesity, and I am a purple person, and want to eat more, I can use this excuse and say it is in my ethnic makeup. I am covered by the umbrella. If I start to exercise and get bored I can say, why do I bother, I am purple and purple people have been shown to be bigger than other groups.

If a study could correlate auto exhaust and obesity, I could use that as an excuse to go to the big city for dining. The traffic is particularly bad today, which may explain why I crave two desserts. Empirical science organizes the data in ways where there is plenty of room under a bunch of umbrellas for people who don't belong in the world of cause and effect.

Let me give an example how the umbrella effect works. The family is planning a camping trip. Before we go, we will do a bunch of studies. One study states that particular date shows an increase incident of rain based on historical data over 100 years. A random sampling of camps sites shows there are an average of 0.1 ant hills on each site, which has doubled the risks from last year. If I don't want to go camping, but wish to stay home, I now have two good scientific excuses, which may not occur on that day on that site, when the family gets there. If we didn't have this umbrella, I would have no scientific excuse to stay home. It would look irrational.

WTF are you trying to say??

You have not explained anything having to to do with obesity.

It is Very Simple People!
Burn more Calories than you Ingest!

I:rant:

[Nitack]

Racoon said:

WTF are you trying to say??

You have not explained anything having to to do with obesity.

It is Very Simple People!
Burn more Calories than you Ingest!

I:rant:

He actually explained a very good point to this whole debate. This very thread is indicative of the problem. Science has provided us with a wealth of data that suggests that there are mitigating factors which can explain why some people burn less calories or might be prone to eat more than they need.

The problem is that people in general tend to rationalize in order to protect their fragile egos. Science has provided a way for obese people to rationalize out that it must not be their fault because they heard on the radio, or read a blurb in a newspaper that says that some people are prone to weight gain. Those people do not hear "prone" or even "more likely", all they hear is "causes weight gain" and rationalize out that they must be one of those people. They did not understand what was being said, nor did they even confirm that they are part of the affected group. But it is far easier to believe that you are a victim of a biological conspiracy to make you fat, than to own up to your own actions (or lack of) and admit that you made yourself fat through poor choices.

[Michaelangelica]

Interesting how ingrained the 'fat-people are lazy' prejudice is.
I am not saying that over-eating fatty foods and lack of exercise is NOT a problem especially in the States. Oz visitors/tourists there cannot believe the size of restaurant meals-- and we are big eaters.
There are other factors like soft drink in plastic bottles, drugs, hereditary, body's processing ability, epigenetics, that help explain obesity in countries where people are starving.

[Michaelangelica]

Quote

Q: In the online audio presentation, Dr. Dana Dolinoy states that the epigenome is responsible for determination of cell type and activity. Does the bisphenol A finding suggest that fetal or environmental exposure to plastics could play a direct role in a genetic propensity toward obesity in humans?
Chantel Smith, Toronto, Canada

Q: Could there be a connection between the increase in plastics in our environment and rising obesity rates?
Randy Grenier, Waltham, Massachusetts

A: We have recently demonstrated that exposure of pregnant mice to bisphenol A (BPA), a building block of polycarbonate plastics and epoxy resins used to make consumer items ranging from water bottles to dental sealants, significantly reduces DNA methylation in Avy mice (Dolinoy et al., Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 104: 13056-13061, 2007). This results in the birth of more yellow offspring, mice that become obese and have a higher incidence of diabetes and cancer as adults. Thus, there could be a connection between the increase in plastics in our environment and the rising incidence of obesity in humans. However, such an association will not be able to be demonstrated unequivocally until the expression and function of genes involved in human obesity are shown to be altered by BPA.

[Editor's note: For more on the agouti mice, see A Tale of Two Mice.]

Q: If BPA has the same effect on humans as it did the mice in your study, why aren't all human babies born sick and obese?
Anonymous

A: BPA exposure during pregnancy increases the incidence of yellow offspring, but it does not result in all of the offspring having a yellow coat color and becoming obese. Therefore, if BPA has the same effect on humans as it does in mice, it would simply increase the percentage of humans who become obese as the BPA exposure increases. This happens to be the situation found in Western cultures, regardless of whether BPA is the culprit.

Q: How do the exposure levels of BPA in the agouti mice experiments compare to human exposure levels—especially exposure levels in pregnant women?
Dr. Gloria Jahnke, Chapel Hill, North Carolina

A: It is difficult to compare the BPA dose used in our mouse study with that to which humans are exposed, because in humans, the BPA is found in the plasma or excreted in the urine. We can't tell exactly how much of the chemical people ingest. The level of BPA that the pregnant mice were exposed to in our study was five times lower than the maximum nontoxic threshold dose in rodents (Dolinoy et al., Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 104: 13056-13061, 2007). Although this is likely higher than typical human exposure, it produced no significant effects on reproductive outcomes, litter size, or offspring health at birth. It did, however, markedly increase the incidence of mice born with a yellow coat color—animals that become obese and have higher incidences of diabetes and cancer as adults.

NOVA | scienceNOW | Epigenetics: Ask the Expert | PBS

[Michaelangelica]

Quote

Chili peppers deliver red hot weight control potential
By Shane Starling, 19-Mar-2009

Related topics: Industry, Antioxidants, carotenoids, Phytochemicals, plant extracts, Weight management

Carotenoid specialist, OmniActive Health Technologies, is moving ahead with its chili extract preliminary research indicates can burn 278 calories more than placebo in exercising subjects before, with dietary supplements manufacturers coming on board.
The Indian company that has done most of its business in lutein and curcumin, presented its Capsimax-branded chili extract at Expo West in Anaheim recently, where it noted a growing body of science backing the thermogenic potential of chili extracts – i.e. the ability to increase metabolic and calorie-burn rates.

Chili peppers deliver red hot weight control potential

Quote

Grape polyphenols may protect against obesity: Study
By Stephen Daniells, 18-Mar-2009

Related topics: Research, Antioxidants, carotenoids, Phytochemicals, plant extracts, Weight management

Antioxidant-rich supplements containing polyphenols from Chardonnay grape seed may protect against oxidative stress linked to obesity, suggests a new study with hamsters.
Researchers from the University of Montpellier report that animals fed a high-fat diet but supplemented with the grape seed extract had adiponectin levels 61 per cent higher than animals only fed the high fat diet. Adiponectin is a protein hormone linked to various metabolic processes, and levels are inversely related to body fat levels.

Grape polyphenols may protect against obesity: Study

[Michaelangelica]

Quote

Fat Factors


By ROBIN MARANTZ HENIG
Published: August 13, 2006NYT
In the 30-plus years that Richard Atkinson has been studying obesity, he has always maintained that overeating doesn’t really explain it all. His epiphany came early in his career, when he was a medical fellow at U.C.L.A. engaged in a study of people who weighed more than 300 pounds and had come in for obesity surgery.
“The general thought at the time was that fat people ate too much,” Atkinson, now at Virginia Commonwealth University, told me recently. “And we documented that fat people do eat too much — our subjects ate an average of 6,700 calories a day.
But what was so impressive to me was the fact that not all fat people eat too much.”

http://www.nytimes.c...tz+Henig&st=nyt

[Michaelangelica]

Overweight seniors live longer
Monday, 01 February 2010
University of Western Australia

Quote

Adding weight to calls for BMI revision

Quote

Related areas
Stories
* Study proves that older adults are mentally tough
* Dementia carers sought for research into Alzheimer's
* A new approach to treating childhood obesity
* Lifestyle changes prevent Alzheimer's disease
* Liver disease linked to increased diabetes risk

It may be timely to review the body mass index (BMI) classification for older adults as new research suggests that older overweight people are less likely to die over a 10 year period than their normal weight peers.

A statistical measurement which utilises a person's height and weight, the BMI has long been used as a formula by the World Health Organization to enable health professionals to discuss weight problems objectively with their patients.

However, a decade-long research project led by Winthrop Professor Leon Flicker at The University of Western Australia found that the category of overweight based on the index may not be a useful tool for Australian men and women aged between 70 and 75.

Professor Flicker and his team assessed 9,200 men and women for their health and lifestyle as part of a study into healthy ageing. They found that adults aged over 70 years who are classified as overweight are less likely to die than adults in the normal weight range. The researchers also found that this holds true for the common causes of death including both cancer and cardiovascular disease; and that being sedentary doubles the risk of death for women but only increases the risk by a quarter in men.

Published in the Journal of the American Geriatrics Society, the study sheds light on the situation in Australia, ranked the third most obese country after the United States and the United Kingdom.

These results add evidence to the claims that the WHO's BMI thresholds for overweight and obese are overly restrictive for older people. However, the benefits were only seen in the overweight category and not in those people who are obese. This research found that the same was true for men and women.

"The study shows that those people who survive to age 70 in reasonable health (and hence participate in these studies) have a different set of risks and benefits associated with the amount of body fat compared with younger people," Professor Flicker said.

"Concerns had been raised about encouraging overweight older people to lose weight and the object of our study was to examine the major unresolved question of ‘what level of BMI is associated with the lowest mortality risk in this group?'"

This study is published in the February issue of the Journal of the American Geriatrics Society. Media wishing to receive a PDF of this article may contact medicalnews@wiley.com

Full citation: Flicker L, McCaul KA, Hankey GJ, Jamrozik K., Brown WJ, Byles JE, Almeida OP; Body Mass Index and Survival in Older Men and Women Aged 70 to 75 Years; The Journal of the American Geriatrics Society (2009); DOI: 0.1111/j.1532-5415.2009.02677.x

About the Author: Leon Flicker, MB BS, PhD, FRACP, is based at the Western Australian Centre for Health and Ageing, Centre for Medical Research, Western Australian Institute for Medical Research, The University of Western Australia. He is a Professor of Geriatric Medicine at UWA, a Consultant Geriatrician at Royal Perth Hospital and Director of the Western Australian Centre for Health and Ageing.

About the Journal: The Journal of the American Geriatrics Society is a comprehensive and reliable source of monthly research and information about common diseases and disorders of older adults. The journal is published by Wiley-Blackwell on behalf of the American Geriatrics Society. For more information, please visit Journal of the American Geriatrics Society - Journal Information.

Adding weight to calls for BMI revision | University News : University News : The University of Western Australia
Callooh! Callay! frabjous day!

Overweight seniors live longer (Science Alert)

[Michaelangelica]

Quote

Childhood obesity: Genetic variation could be a factor
12. March 2010 08:56

More complicated

Increasing childhood obesity has worried governments and public health advisers in many countries. But a study of 300 children with severe obesity by the University of Cambridge and the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, suggest the problem may be more complicated than simply bad diet, overeating, or lack of exercise.

'It's a tricky issue,' says Doctor Matt Hurles from the Sanger Institute, 'because you don't want to remove peoples' motivation for their own health benefits. Equally, you don't want people to be stigmatized for things that are beyond their control.' Dr Hurles' group have been studying how the DNA structure, or the genome structure, varies between individuals, and the impact that has on health and disease. His team collaborated with a group specifically working on severe childhood obesity and they were keen to discover whether genetic variation could be a factor in obesity.

Childhood obesity: Genetic variation could be a factor

[Michaelangelica]

Quote

Insufficient Sleep Associated With Overweight And Obesity

ScienceDaily (Jan. 20, 2005) — CHICAGO – Obese and overweight patients in a study group reported sleeping less than their peers with normal body mass indexes (BMIs), according to an article in the January 10 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

Insufficient sleep causes neurocognitive changes

Insufficient Sleep Associated With Overweight And Obesity

Quote

Race And Short Sleep Duration Increase The Risk For Obesity

ScienceDaily (June 8, 2009) — According to a research abstract that will be presented on June 8, at Sleep 2009, the 23rd Annual Meeting of the Associated Professional Sleep Societies, race significantly influences the risk of obesity conferred by short sleep duration, with blacks having a greater risk than whites.

Quote

Obesity Associated With Depression and Vice Versa

ScienceDaily (Mar. 2, 2010) — Obesity appears to be associated with an increased risk of depression, and depression also appears associated with an increased risk of developing obesity, according to a meta-analysis of previously published studies in the March issue of Archives of General Psychiatry, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

Obesity associated with depression and vice versa

[Michaelangelica]

The effectiveness of popular, non-prescription weight loss supplements
Garry Egger, David Cameron-Smith and Rosemary Stanton
MJA 1999; 171: 604-608


eMJA: Egger et al, The effectiveness of popular, non-prescription weight loss supplements

[Michaelangelica]

Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease

Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is a term used to describe the accumulation of fat in the liver of people who drink little or no alcohol.

Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is common and, for most people, causes no signs and symptoms and no complications. But in some people with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, the fat that accumulates can cause inflammation and scarring in the liver. This more serious form of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is sometimes called nonalcoholic steatohepatitis. At its most severe, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease can progress to liver failure.
Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease - MayoClinic.com

Quote

Causes and Risk Factors of Fatty Liver

• Alcohol,
  
• obesity,
  
• starvation,
  
• diabetes mellitus,
  
• corticosteroids,
  
• poisons (carbon tetrachloride and yellow phosphorus),
  
• Cushing's syndrome, and hyperlipidemia are some causes of fatty liver.
  
• Microvesicular fatty liver may be caused by valproic acid

toxicity and high-dose tetracycline or during pregnancy.

Fatty Liver - Symptoms, Treatment and Prevention