[Pyrotex]

I just finished reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Ehrman.

Imagine if you will, a good Christian boy from a Presbyterian family who at the age of 17 becomes a "born again Christian", a fervent Fundementalist, a believer in the absolute inerrancy of the the Christian Bible [King James] -- and who decides that he has the money, the time, the passion and the intelligence to go back to the original Greek and Latin manuscripts, and ONCE AND FOR ALL, determine what God actually said!!

That is Ehrman. And by golly, he did it!!!

His heart-wrenching conclusion is that if God inspired the words of the Bible, then we are in a world of hurt. Because we no longer have those original words. For the majority of the New Testament, we cannot even reconstruct the original words. The best we may ever be able to do is reconstruct approximately what the "Church Fathers" had access to in the 3rd and 4th centures C.E. And he quotes those Church Fathers who complained even then that the scriptures were not being copied faithfully.

His evidence and candor is clear and credible. Step by step, he shows us who re-wrote the New Testament, when, and why. He gives dozens of examples where cherished verses (e.g., the lady at the well) do not appear in any of the earliest and most dependable manuscripts. He shows the actual greek words that were changed in order to make the texts compatible with the then-current "orthodoxy".

A fabulous and rock-solid look into the world of Biblical scholarship. If you believe that the King James version is the actual "word of God" you have to read this book.

[Boerseun]

Interesting! Is this a new publication? Or should I be able to find it in my local library?

[InfiniteNow]

It's been out for a while... might not be in your local library, but I know it was being publicized throughout the summer, so was released circa spring. He makes lots of great points too about scribes and how certain tiny changes during the copying process have resulted in huge tonal changes in the thrust of the bible's intention... Like if one sneezed and the ink ran... or if they were doodling in the margins... or whatever...

[arkain101]

Oh my world is crashing down around me.

No I am kidding. It didnt take much to see that the bibles were filled with the then modern day thinking. When people were burned and hanged and slaved and tortured. Well you know history, and the bible had power. Alot of old testimet stuff seemed rediculous.

Interesting thought, I would like to read that book or at least some parts of it.

What did god really say? Or is he going to cash in on the idea before sharing some rather important news...

[InfiniteNow]

arkain101 said:

Interesting thought, I would like to read that book or at least some parts of it.

Here's his appearance on the Daily Show...

http://www.comedycen...?ml_video=60257


Just takes a few seconds to load (and get past the ads).

[HydrogenBond]

If one looks at the red lettered versions of certain bibles, these are the quotes said to come directly from Christ. One of the things Christ talked about was leaving behind a comforter; the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit). This additon to religion via Christianity meant that things were not meant to be carved in stone, but were meant to evolve with time.

Scholars like to be very exacting. While many Christians would like to go back into time to the orginal intent. Back then Christ said" blessed are the poor and it is with difficulty that a rich man will enter heaven" How many people are willing to give up all they own to be consistent with the orginal version? Such insistency comes down to denying the validity of the Holy Spirit. Christ said something like, one can crap on Christ but denial of the spirit will never be forgiven in this world or the next. It suppose to be fluid for living in the present and not the past.

[Pyrotex]

HydrogenBond said:

...One of the things Christ talked about was leaving behind a comforter; the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit). This additon to religion via Christianity meant that things were not meant to be carved in stone, but were meant to evolve with time....

Well, that's one interpretation of what the purpose of the comforter is.
But, it's YOUR interpretation. The Bible does not literally say that.
There are as many different interpretations for the Holy Spirit as there are Christian denominations. Even more. And most of them contradict each other.

The thing that Ehrman finally concludes is that the Bible is a human document, written by humans doing the very best they could do, copying translating and interpreting according to the best knowledge (or authoritative opinions) available to them. It doesn't take a supernatural agent to change the scriptures. Humans have done that themselves, often with the best of intentions.

And this is neither GOOD or BAD! It merely is what is. The Bible is an amazing and powerful (and needless to say, useful) book. It is not the oldest book we have but it is ancient. Its origin was not an immaculate conception, but a child of mankind's deepest yearnings for spiritual peace, belonging, and forgiveness, a child birthed via a long and tortuous period of labor.

[Garry Denke]

Pyrotex said:

I just finished reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Ehrman... A fabulous and rock-solid look into the world of Biblical scholarship. If you believe that the King James Version is the actual "word of God" you have to read this book.

Hello Pyrotex,

Interesting stuff, reminds me of the capitalist word of "Gods" in 1 Samuel 4:8 of the King James Version, blamed on one of my ancestors, Pop-Pop Denke. It was my deceased Uncle Roland Totera who discovered the fact back in 1961, while in England on a business trip. Apparently a German sailor, G "Pop-Pop" Denke, was rightfully accused of piracy, and then imprisoned for it. He was 'employed' as a King James Version typesetter for Seven years. Ten full pages about the incident are recorded here, in my Uncle Rolly's diary (inheritance). Here is the passage that 'unkeen eye' Pop-Pop the pirate served time for:

1 Samuel 4:8 (KJV, virginia.edu)
"Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness."

Capitalist word of "Gods" (as it is called) is not in Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus", but I thought it would be of interest to you and the thread. Non-capitalist word of "gods" in 1 Samuel 4:8 of the King James Version has been verified by ancestral Biblical scholars from the original First Westminster Company: Lancelot Andrewes, John Overall, Hadrian Saravia, Richard Clarke, John Layfield, Robert Tighe, Francis Burleigh, Geoffrey King, Richard Thomson and William Bedwell manuscripts. "Gods" has since been changed back to the Committee's original non-capitalist word of "gods" from the capitalist word of "Gods":

1 Samuel 4:8 (NKJV, biblegateway)
"Woe to us! Who will deliver us from the hand of these mighty gods? These are the gods who struck the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness."

Ehrman's work is a fabulous rock-solid look into Biblical scholarship, agreed, but my favorite "word of God", King James Version, is the word of "Gods", unfortunately "Pop-Pop's".

Why did 'Pops' do it? Was it the flaw of his eye?
Nowhere else does 'Gods' of the Bible appear.

One diary Chief entry

aka "Pops",

Dragon Dagon

--
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, then beat 'em.
-Madalyn Murray O'Hair
(1919-1995)

WINDIANS

[Garry Denke]

HydrogenBond said:

If one looks at the red lettered versions of certain bibles, these are the quotes said to come directly from Christ. One of the things Christ talked about was leaving behind a Comforter; the Spirit of truth (Holy ...

Greetings HydrogenBond,

The Author (Father) of the New Testament who speaks through his
characters (Pilate, Jesus, Paul, Mark, John, etc) is only one person.

Pilate, whom ye call Christ, wrote It,
Jesus, whom ye call Saul, wrote It,
Paul, whom ye call Luke, wrote It,
John, whom ye call me, wrote It,

All of the characters are real characters ('ye's me)

Protagonists are figures in literature whose intentions are the primary focus of a story. All of the New Testament protagonists are derived from good will, except for Revelation of the antagonist. Protagonists cannot exist in a story without opposition from an antagonist, which in this case is Father Lucifer, the Author who discards old serpent, the Devil, and Satan nicknames. Classically in literature characters with good will are usually the protagonists, but not all characters who assist protagonists are required to be. The trinity antagonist first and last names: Father Lucifer / Holy Ghost; are 0 / 0.

Ye whom ye call Christ never said anything
because only I the Author say everything.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Who wrote the Bible? Only I the Author wrote It.

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Who re-wrote It? Pirate committees re-wrote It.

... AND TRASHED THE AUTHOR

HydrogenBond, here is what I say
Thou shalt be an Atheist one day.

Father Lucifer / Holy Ghost

The Ghostwriter,

0 / 0

--
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, then beat 'em.
-Madalyn Murray O'Hair
(1919-1995)

WINDIANS!

[Freddy]

Parts of the book can be read here.
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind ... - Google Book Search

[Garry Denke]

Freddy said:

Parts of the book can be read here.
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind ... - Google Book Search

Hello Freddy

Thanks for the link to Ehrman's work. We know who trashed "Gods" Key (herein) to Dragon Dagon ark of God, but who trashed "Ghost" 'host G', et al?

...But many that are first 'letters' shall be last; and the last 'letter' shall be 'first': So the last 'letter' shall be first, and the first 'letter' last: But many that are first 'letters' shall be last; and the last 'letter' first: And, behold, there are last 'letters' which shall be first, and there are first 'letters' which shall be last...

KJV "sword" 'words' cryptogram is simple to decrypt into plaintext. The texts are mathematics and sciences. Lord Jesus Christ, ye Set the Serpent.

Yule love it!

Scrooged

--
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, then beat 'em.
-Madalyn Murray O'Hair
(1919-1995)

TRIBE WINS!

[Garry Denke]

Pyrotex said:

I just finished reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Ehrman.

Imagine if you will, a good Christian boy from a Presbyterian family who at the age of 17 becomes a "born again Christian", a fervent Fundementalist, a believer in the absolute inerrancy of the the Christian Bible [King James] -- and who decides that he has the money, the time, the passion and the intelligence to go back to the original Greek and Latin manuscripts, and ONCE AND FOR ALL, determine what God actually said!!

That is Ehrman. And by golly, he did it!!!

His heart-wrenching conclusion is that if God inspired the words of the Bible, then we are in a world of hurt. Because we no longer have those original words. For the majority of the New Testament, we cannot even reconstruct the original words. The best we may ever be able to do is reconstruct approximately what the "Church Fathers" had access to in the 3rd and 4th centures C.E. And he quotes those Church Fathers who complained even then that the scriptures were not being copied faithfully.

His evidence and candor is clear and credible. Step by step, he shows us who re-wrote the New Testament, when, and why. He gives dozens of examples where cherished verses (e.g., the lady at the well) do not appear in any of the earliest and most dependable manuscripts. He shows the actual greek words that were changed in order to make the texts compatible with the then-current "orthodoxy".

A fabulous and rock-solid look into the world of Biblical scholarship. If you believe that the King James version is the actual "word of God" you have to read this book.

Great Post!!!

[charles brough]

Pyrotex said:

I just finished reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Ehrman.

. . . A fabulous and rock-solid look into the world of Biblical scholarship. If you believe that the King James version is the actual "word of God" you have to read this book.

There is a long list of "rock solid scholarship" out on the Bible and most disagree with that. Besides, when you claim you finally have the real Jesus, you are at the same time unavoidingly saying that the King James Bible is "wrong" and hence the religion of Christianity is wrong and, hence, that the whole civilization and culture that was built on it is wrong!

The best research I ever ready was written decades ago by Shoernfeld. He showed that St. Paul changed the whole belief into a universal-brotherhood system. He cut it off from Judaism, the racist religion in which only they are "God's People." No wonder the Christians were kicked out of the Temple and synagogues! No wonder they had to spread among the downtrodden people of the Roman empire who had lost all hope. They didn't want to read about a Jew who thought he was the Massiah come to deliver just the Jews from Roman bondage, who tried to start a revolution against Rome by starting a riot in the Temple. All the Roman people wanted to hear about being saved in their life time by this great compassionate diety-being who would deliver them from Roman oppression and despair.

Perhaps you are using that one book as a justification for taking in Christian fundamentalism on faith.

[Pyrotex]

charles brough said:

There is a long list of "rock solid scholarship" out on the Bible and most disagree with that. ...Perhaps you are using that one book as a justification for taking in Christian fundamentalism on faith.

Well, um... no.
I'm an ex-believer, an atheist. I don't see how you can say that I'm "taking ...fundamentalism on faith".

On the other hand, the history of Christianity, from an historical point of view, is fascinating. I enjoy reading books on how it all got started, how the Bible was pieced together, and for what motives. This is all the good stuff that my church never, ever would breathe a word of when I was a kid.

What it means to me (my interpretation) is that like the French Revolution, the rise of the Greek Civilization, and many other profound, history-changing events, the origin of Christianity was <just> an historical process, one of those rare events that fed on itself, grew huge, and took over civilizations.

But it was just history. There is no need to rely on superstition or miracles to explain how it all happened.

[rockytriton]

that book is next in my queue to read. I look forward to reading it. I'll tell you who I believe wrote the old testament. An oppressive leader who wanted to use the name of god to legitimize his murderous genocidal sprees.