bochen360

GTAIV for PC is "Future Proof" so says Rockstar. I have played both GTAIV PC and GTAIV for the xbox 360 and someone please help me understand something... Maybe this should go in the gaming section instead of computer science but the question I have was not answered by the Rockstar Support and totally ignored and laughed at on the unofficial GTA forums... So maybe someone good will computers will help enlightenment me... So goes the excuse that Rockstar gives for the bad framerate performances of GTAIV for PC is that they FUTURE PROOF -ed it... I don't buy it... But I want to get others opinions... A game that always future proofs itself that I like to play is Flight Simulator by Microsoft. But I don't think GTAIV PC can use the same excuse and here is why.. My xbox360 has a total of 512RAM that is shared by both the videocard as well as the system itself. So why is there a 1.5GB requirment for playing essentially the exact same game on the PC? (nevermind that I have 4GB of ram, but still one wonders...) Why is it the the XBOX360 version is "ONLY" 6GB in size (the DVD-9 capacity is technically closer to 8.5GB but Rockstar didn't max out the capacity and the GTAIV on 360 is only 6.5GB) when the PC version is closer to 15GB and needs another 25GB to install and play on harddrive? The funny thing is the graphics on the 360 is BETTER/Sharper than on the PC, (so no lame excuse of including HD higher res textures that causes such a big filesize in the game on the pc platform compared to 360..) and runs at a much smoother and faster frames per second! Why do I need MORE harddrive space, and MORE CPU power, and MORE GPU speed and MORE RAM just to play a game that looks worse and slower than the 360 counterpart that uses LESS HDD (actually it doesn't even need a HDD), LESS CPU, LESS GPU, LESS RAM???!!!!?? Now the really funny thing is Rockstar CLAIMS to have "future proofed" this game... Oh is THAT RIGHT???? Is that why I recently discovered that the PC version of GTAIV has a built in 20ft cap on rendering peds and drivers in CARS??? Even on the most power system today with all settings maxed out in the PC version of GTAIV peds and drivers in cars don't appear until you are as close as 20 feet away from them!!!! And there seems to be no way around this!!! So let me get this right, the PC version is permanently HANDICAPPED for NO REASON AT ALL!!! and it has worse graphics at worse framerates YET needs exponentially more RAM, is more than twice as large in size as the 360 version, more harddrive space, more CPU and GPU cycles and they said they have made it future proof??? How is it future proof? The way I see it the 20ft ped-in-car-cap will still exists in 2088, except by then the activations servers for Live and Rockstar Social Club would have went offline and there would be no more support from R*, MS, or Sony the Securom makers so what is a quantum computer to do??? How is it "future proof" when it has already been proven by millions of gamers that the same GTAIV game runs perfectly well on a vastly inferior system with better graphics and better framerates than the top of the line pcs can do today??? This game is over 6 months old, it is already "aged" in the gaming world, it played just fine on a console system that was realized back in 2005 and they do a half *** sloppy port to PC and put a crap load of DRM and rootkits on the game and slap it with a hefty price tag plus ridiculous going through hoops and it runs slower and looks suckier even on state of the art PC that is 100X more powerful than xbox and they have the audacity to call these optimizations "future proof" Maybe in the future all our games will render peds in cars at 2ft radius at the rate this is going???? A game that was released well over half a year ago that has already been proven by millions to run perfectly well on a far inferior console system released way back in 2005 now comes out on the pc and runs slower, with poorer graphics even on the most state of the art computer systems that overpower any next-gen console by orders of magnitude now needs more ram, more cpu, more gpu and more hdd on even so renders slower and poorer than ever before! This is progress???? This is future proof???? Maybe if I code a FPS that looks like crap with graphics worse than the original Rainbow Six by Tom Clancy and is so horribly unoptimized and ridden with bugs and crap that it runs 1fps on a hypothetically NSA quantum computer I could sell it for $500 million bucks because it is FUTURE PROOF????

No this is a personal standalone computer its not even part of a workgroup, I have it hardwired to an actiontec router using sbc at&t as my DSL isp service. I have Window XP Pro SP2 with all updates turned off, not using system restore, etc.. So non of you people have the problem before? Scratching my head about the ONLY thing I think could be going on is the fact I cannot run chkdsk. At bootime it will tell me "Access Denied - Cannot access volume for direct access" or something like that and then promptly tells me checkdisk failed to complete... The MS knowledge base says this is a issue with having to update to Service Pack 3 from SP2 of WIndows XP Pro (yeah right, like I'm going to do/believe THAT, SP3 has absolutely nothing I need from the standpoint of the enduser...and definitely won't fix my chkdsk issue...) I thought at first it might be related to Daemon tools that I had installed and I even downloaded an SPTD remover. and turned it off in the registry but to no avail.... I'm not sure what could be going on, till date I still cannot checkdisk with either the default Windows XP tool or 3rd party utilities they all say "cannot access volume for direct access"... BUT I'm not sure how this is related to Firefox losing its settings, I did some Googleing and it appears this is QUITE an often thing that Happens to other users of the browser as well!

SO which browser cost money these days????

Okay, sorry to rant, but has anyone ELSE experienced this issue? Firefox Forgets ALL Settings! Three times its forgotten ALL settings mysteriously!! I use Firefox 3.0.3 and the very month or so mysteriously and for NO APPARENT reason at all the TOOLS->OPTIONS settings in Firefox browser will RESET itself to a blank default factory install state/condition.... This REALLY makes me mad to no end because I SPENT time to set everything exactly the way I want it! (for example I HATE autoupdate and all that ) This is worse since somehow it RESETS the settings of all of my plugins that I have. So my ADBLOCKER PLUS loses all its subscriptions and I have to go back and manually ad them in again, my custom advertisement blocking list is LOST, my NOSCRIPT goes haywire and forgets what all its supposed to block and blocks those that I had previously whitelisted before the RESET of Firefox, my BLOCKSITE loses the sites it was told to block and on and on... Even last night everything was working great. I have ZERO problems with my PC (Windows XP SP2 autoupdates turned off as well, no virus, no thing...) I shutdown NORMALLY (didn't cut the power or whatever, etc...) This morning boots up and firefox takes longer than usual to load, then I find out it takes me to that Mozilla page (forgot the fact I set my homepage to about:blank, etc) and then I find out what really happened and my browser totally screwed up... I'm beginning to think this is a conspiracy on the side of Mozilla to return its browser back to default condition as an underhanded way to forcible force us to UPDATE to its newer version! AFTER ALL it lets me TURN OFF automatic update but if the browser "ACCIDENTALLY" "FORGETS" its settings and go haywire like a broken terminator robot and reverts back to factory install conditions all it takes is a few moments of internet connection and whoops Firefox just updated itself again!!!!!! I hope Mozilla is not THIS cynical but after this happening a few times I am having SERIOUS doubts... Has this happened to anyone else on here? Anyone know or confirm this is conspiracy to get us to force us to autoupdate even if we have it turned OFF and NEVER want to update??

I just wanted to add, ultimately the universe is the ultimate "computer", everything else including all other computers, human brains, digital lifeforms are just emulators in the grand scheme of things. The laws of physics and the physical universe "out there" is the last frontier, the only TRUE computing computer. So why not have an emulation within another emulation? In simulations and games in general the advancements in physics and the physical aspects of a game engine have lead to and necessitated the advances in AI. The advancements in graphics have also required an equal advancement in physics, and the advancements in both need AI to be on equal grounds to let these multifaceted aspects of this virtual worlds really come together and combine in a smooth holistic natural way. All three are interdisciplinary and depend mutually on each others existence and advancement. Having embodied AI makes little sense if the game engine is say a primitive Quake II etc... Without the necessary big and little details and the scale and intricacies of the physical virtual world super intelligent robots simple have "nothing to do" in such an ultra simplistic universe. So far we have come a long way in terms of graphics and even physics (GTAIV's naturalmotion euphoria engine and Crytek graphics as prime examples) but are sorely lacking in TRUE AI. Even main characters in games are 99% scripted and deterministic and have no memories, have no ability to truly "learn" or to do random things "outside the box" and generally do not have any real-time/render-time neural network or cognitive abilities no matter how basic or primitive. They have no image recognition ability, no physical vision with ocular organs simulations or accurate line of sight paradigms, they do not and cannot process raw sensations like sound, touch, and have no ideal of orientation (g's, earth gravity, CG, etc...) and do not possess higher level goals or motives, no interpersonal drives, and cannot see a bigger picture in any meaningful way.. Now I'm not saying we should copy the IBM Blue Brain Project and make/simulate every single neuron in the human brain down to the molecular level and create a true AI from the bottom up that contains the illusive "ghost in the machine" or anything like that... I'm simply suggesting that AI in games have not processed much since the old DOS days of DOOM or Wolfenstein. Crysis is great to look at, but there is no substance, nothing beneath that paper thin layer of skin.. How marvelous and glorious it would be, how ironic it would be, to create this AI Terminator Robot as an emulation within an emulation, the ultimate simulator per se and endow it with all the mythical and legendary abilities and superpowers of the Terminator franchise and bring to life a truly AI agent in the virtual form of an assassin robot embodied and beheld at last on the PC Desktop platform! (come on we have to find some way to but octo-core processors and the next gen video cards to good use!!!!!) Why not build a Terminator robot (virtually I mean) capable of being highly cognizant and capable of interacting in a realistic, embodied, and fascinating manner with its virtual world, a robot that follows the nitty gritty rules of the known laws of physics and is vulnerable to damage and destruction. A robot that starts to break down realistically as it is shot too many times and its endoskeleton takes a heavy beating and sustains much internal damage, a robot that begins to "glitch" and its program malfunction as its chip is exposed to damage or its power core is ruptured or fuel cells become eradict and it is running out of "juice" (with realistic simulation of what happens when a CPU is undervoltaged etc..) (perhaps its programming code becauses partially corrupt, or its ram is fried or whatever.. but modeled on the tiniest physical levels and not 'canned' in any way.) Running away from such a terminator would be as challenging as running away from a REAL life terminator, and besides, the fun would be endless if we have finally met our match (so to speak) as long as it doesn't decide to take over our computer and do something crazy to our network or find a way to inflict damage in the so called real world.

TommyAngelo says it too good to be true. Ultimately the only permanent (unridable) imperative of any life-form (whether biological, digital, virtual, In Silicio or existential) is survival and to "exists" in general. Darwinistic evolution, natural selection and the anthropic principle all dictate that this "survival" and "struggle of existence" is the one underlying force and motive of all life (and perhaps indeed the existence of the universe and its laws itself). All the other motives, drives, emotions and feelings can be derived from this first-final 'a priori' axiom of existence and in fact it can be argued everything else is basically different maniestations and expressions of this one force of nature. Consciousness, and self-awareness, self-identity along with higher level thinking exists as the motivation and utility of a "workspace" that allows for large amounts of relevant and irrelevant information to be brought together in one subjective arena. This kind of higher level cognitive function that evolved in humans serve as a great simplifier that allows us to filter and select appropriate course of action(s) when bombarded by different kinds of data inputs. Why create a PC game with an AI Terminator robot capable of some sort of true "artificial intelligence"? Because of REALISM. What we need, and what has been so far sorely lacking in the gaming/simulation world is a game that is created ground up to be fundamentally supportive of an true artificial intelligence even at the most atomic level. We need a game that supports the embedding of an Autonomous Agent(s) with Embodied AI that is capable of learning and evolving with its built-in or evolved-in drives to accomplish its hard coded directives and soft coded higher level goals. Autonomous Agent - is a system/agent situated within and a-part of an environment that senses that environment and acts on it, and over time, in pursuit of its own agenda(s) and so as to effect what it senses in the future. Embodied Agent - is an autonomous living creature, subject to the constraints of its environment. By having the AI aware of biological limitations, we gain the ability to use embodiment as another tool for enhancing the experience of the player. So in effect, the AI agents in the game become digital actors that always try to get a step ahead of the player. Full Agent/Unit control - parallel: one command per unit per simulation frame; atomic actions - no predefined low-level behavior; client/agents are in total control within the laws of physics and environmental constraints of its own body mechanisms and the world it resides in. By having the AI aware of biological limitations, we gain the ability to use embodiment as another tool for enhancing the experience of the player.We should do something like the following for in-game actors/robots/terminators: 1. Access any information in the world if it’s necessary to provide an entertaining experience. 2. Be aware of what information is not attainable in a biologically/mechanically plausible way. 3. Have the actors/robots fake extra steps to “acquire” this information a second time in an embodied way. 4. Take extra measures to act this out according to the player’s expectations. Furthermore this should include: Vision - Numerous little details related to the visual senses can be simulated very easily when you model the ocular organs explicitly. This includes visual delay, errors in perception (position, types of entity). You can also actively enforce the field of view, line of sight paradigm Movement - When an animal is moving, you'll be physically simulating its body. Things like momentum, turning rate will be automatically applied to any motion command the requires. We also need to separate, differentiate and make independent the "Game" and the artificially intelligent robot AI Terminator within the game. In short we need to have two distinct and pronounced aspects to the entire Game: 1. The game itself (game engine, physics, textures, low level "ai", sound, NPC characters, scripts, even the mesh, texture, graphics, mechanics of the vessel/shell that is the terminator robot itself etc everything except the core artificial intelligence and "programming code" aspect of the actual 'AI TERMINATOR ROBOT MACHINE') 2. The actual "brain" of the terminator robot that runs independently of the rest of the Game, and is on equal footing with the actual human player in terms that it has no access to the games information and is strictly an embodied agent that connects to and sees the world through its "physical body" (and the physical and real limitations that come along with it) that is in the game itself. We must have the terminator AI bot be some sort of Modular and External AI code that can be modified independent of the games programming code or its low level ai or rendering engine. (for example, player can capture robot "in game" and extract his "cpu/brain" then make changes to it by plugging it into another in-game virtual computer and reprogramming it or giving it a new mission etc and boot the robot back up and play and experiment in this sandbox environment, or player can design his own "ai brain" outside of the gaming interface on his own 'real computer' and replace it / insert it into the terminator robot in the game and see the results of his own programming and engineering..) By making it (the ai agent component) modular and external and 'remote' we can if necessary for example connect a super-computer to the game/simulation/server to let it play as this extremely state of the art terminator against ourselves the game or against other embodied autonomous agents whether in game (Terminator VS Terminator) or by using other Terminators designed by other gamers. For this to happen there must be both High Level and Low Level design and implementation and programming of the AI Terminator Robot.Making this a Robot that is a true autonomous and learning (ie capable of "curiosity" and true randomness and follows a rewards and punishment mechanism of evolving more efficent behavior towards achieving its goal via a "natural selection" of sorts...) embodied AI agent that is subject to the contraints of it own "physical" (endoskeleton and bodily mechanics simulated in a virtual in-game world via the games physics and graphics engine, etc) limitations and also the limitations brought about by the enviroment that it lives in (the virtual city that the robot resides in during the game/simulation) An example of high level instruction/guidance would be the Three Laws of Robotics. An robot in the context of a Terminator of course would not follow any of these, but in its place would be a new set of directives etc. Three Laws of Robotics 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. 2. A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law. An autonomous agent is a system situated within and a part of an environment that senses that environment and acts on it, over time, in pursuit of its own agenda and so as to effect what it senses in the future SENSORS -> COGNITION -> ACTION So what would a game like this feel like to play? Imagine we enter the world of Terminator and we are in Los Angelos (or any other major US cities) Let this city be more expansive, more realistic, more detailed and more interactive and immersive than Liberty City in GTAIV. Let this city not have an abrupt boundary "end" like the islands of Liberty City, the mountains of Superman Returns, or the matrix fields of the 13th Floor but let it continue on forever (or at least model the size of earth itself) using fractal and autogen technologies such as Project IGI and Flight Simulator. Let the graphics be as good or better than the best of Crysis: Warhead and Crytek 2 Engine. Let the physics be orders of magnitude above the Havoks 2 and NaturalMotion euphoria engine which was extentsively showcased for GTAIV character physics. Let the individual NPC's be as lifelike and unique and as individual as characters in the upcoming Sims 3 simulation (etc)... Let the natural language dialogue be as in depth as Facade for PC, and the neural network of the terminator robot more advanced than any combination of Framsticks (3D simulation and evolution) and Nero for PC. Now within the context and confines of this marvelous city and its buildings, commerce, technology, streets and citizens we the gamer/player/user is targeted and scheduled for "termination" by an advanced Terminator Robot that comes back from the future to kill us and our goal/objective is to avoid termination at all costs and to survive and destroy the robot that is haunting us. It is truly an "open ended" sandbox type game much more so than GTAIV or Crysis or Oblivion or Fallout or any other game in any other genre that I could possibly think of. The only "GOAL" in the game is the goal of all of life itself, as it mirrors existence itself in a self similar way. To "survive" is the most basic goal. After all if Terminator succeed then we are dead, and seeing how "cheats" have no purpose in an embodied game, dying is the ultimate GAME OVER. So then if we are smart and lucky and use the tools in the virtual city as defensive or offensive weapons against our assassin the Terminator robot we can try to OUTSMART an AI Terminator Machine and find ways to hide, to evade, to escape, and to attack, to defend, to even terminate the Terminator. Let's say we are bored after defeating the Terminator and we extract his "chip" and find a way to reprogram him on the fly inside the game world and we script him to follow our orders and protect us the player at all costs. Then we reinsert his chip and let him reboot and we ascend on the city GTAIV style and cause madness and mayhem on the streets everywhere and but this time we have a near superhuman extremely smart and agile Terminator robot fighting FOR us on our side! The relatively much dumber and deterministicNPC's of the city (citizens, cops, workers, etc) will be virtually helpless to defeat or defend against us! (they have to follow "rules" too and cannotrubberband or cheat simply because of the fact that they are intellectually speaking inferior to the player and the Terminator..) So a Terminator will be extremely processor, memory and space intensive. On a multicore processor probably at least 2 cores will be dedicated to the "Terminator" AI robot and many Gigabytes of system RAM as well (not counting the CPU and RAM needed for the REST of the game itself...). Because the Terminator is an advanced AI capable of learning and modifying its own data, perception filters, code and programming (but not to the extent of violating its hardcoded or top level mission goals and objectives) and because all physical processes are simulated faithfully with the upmost fidelity (vision, motion, energy consumption, critical decision making, mission analysis, etc) and because it is a truly autonomous agent (as opposed to a lame duck NPC character following a predefined script) and genuine embodied AI agent (it is on equal footing as the player and has no "access" to game information and cannot "cheat") it can over time (and sometimes rather quickly so) adapt its tactics and strategy to better accomplish its mission, and it can even develop a distinct personality and subgoals and additional drives as long as these do not stand in the way of its primary mission... If captured and reprogrammed it's mission and memory can be wiped out and it can be instructed to protect instead of to harm or it can be "set free" to live without imperatives or higher order goals or objectives and it can simply "live and let live" until it decides or develops its own set of code of conduct, its own interests or hobbies etc...

Hello All