questor

It seems that this thread degenerated into an argument about creationism/deities/god/religion, etc. rather than what I mentioned in my opening statement. ( quote)''It is obvious that environment influences variation in species, all one has to do is observe the different skin colors in Homo Sapiens.to see these results. These of course are macro variations and we do not know the biochemical reactions in genes that ocurred to cause these differences.'' My request was that anyone who understood the biochemical basis of life, which of necessity yields the mechanisms for evolution as well as any other life process, would explain these processes. This brought a deluge of links which, although interesting and informative did not answer the question. The truth is that currently this information is not known. If it was, then man could create life. We know the building blocks of life, we know the genetic molecule, we know the composition of enabling enzymes,but we can't yet make reproductive life which sustains itself. Without life, there would be no evolution or creationism or any thing else to argue about. Here is an interesting link on the subject: The biochemical basis of life INMHO creationism has many meanings, the most common of which is tied in to religion. It seems that most people cannot envision a universe which had some type of intelligent design without interjecting the god argument. I myself have no way of knowing how the universe came to be, so I will wait for the truth. If it happens that man can make life, I think the god argument will go away, but the creation debate may continue. When we fully understand the biochemical basis of life we will be able to diagnose, prevent, and treat most genetic disease and malformations.We will also be able to explain the biochemical basis of evolution and life itself.

This has become an interesting spectacle, grown men acting like silly juveniles. I asked Galapagos to provide quotes where I had discussed God. I was sent a couple of links about God and theology that had nothing to do with my question. Was this the answer I requested? Galapagos has still not answered. Pyro, this has become quite intense, hasn't it? You went to a lot of trouble on your last outburst. Clever graphics. Am I supposed to enjoy these tantrums or just stay my humble self? P.S, I am not your brother, so you can't punish him through me.

Moon, when did I say this? ''You keep saying that none of us intelligent enough or well read enough to know or to understand.'' Do you have a quote to that effect? Did you just make this up for some reason? I think there are a lot of people here who are well infomed, educated, and intelligent and I have no recollection of saying otherwise. Just because they are intelligent does not mean they know all the answers, no one does. That does not mean I cannot question theories which have not answered all the questions. How about supplying a supporting quote when you accuse me of something I did not do?

Essay, you are aware of molecules, atomic and sub-atomic particles? ''"So, actually we must understand the nature of life and at what particulate level it resides in order to answer all the questions of evolution." -Q Does this now make sense to you? I am not religious as I have said many times before. I had my internal arguments about God and religion many years ago. Your links may be better addressed to some of the other posters who prefer to talk religion rather than wrestle with the difficult questions of biochemical reactions. Explain to me how Physics dictates the reaction of anything? Physics is merely the name of a branch of science. The reactions are between substrates and catalyzed by enzymes. I cannot explain the cause or timing of these reactions, and that has been my question to the group.

T-bird, there have been discussions on this site arguing opposing views about SR, the Big Bang, politics and many other issues. I do not hold myself out as an expert, but I do have a right to my opinion. I do not insult people or belittle them, and I should receive the same treatment. Pyro has attacked me verbally on three occasions and I have not retaliated. How humble should I be? I don't know all the answers and I respect the knowledge and talent of many of the members here. I came here to learn and not be insulted for my views. When I learn the truth I readily accept it.Do you think there is something wrong with my questions or are my questions already in the realm of knowledge? Have you read this thread?

Galapagos, I thought you were having trouble reading my posts, now I am sure of it. Please give the quotes where I have referred to religion or God. Instead of discussing the biochemical basis of evolution, you bring up the strawman of religion. No one is talking about religion but you and Moon. If these biochemical reactions are mundane, why don't you discuss how the genetic code is passed on and explain why the researchers can't do it?

Michael, I am sorry you have made more of my statements than I said. ''I am not religious, but I do think the universe has intelligent design.'' This statement says I am not religious, but I THINK the universe has intelligent design. This is my opinion, I do not make any claims, I do not talk about religion. I do not say I am certain there is ID or make any claims for it. From my observation of the universe I see evidence of order, not chaos. ''I believe in cause and effect. everything has a cause. Once you determine the cause, you may be able to create the effect.'' This statement says everything(effect) has a cause. This has nothing to do with God or religion, it has to do with the concept of cause and effect. If you know some effects that have no cause please say whay they are. You may want to google it. If you know the cause of the biochemical basis of life, tell me the reactions and how they are carried out. As a matter of fact, why don't you explain life itself to me ,since that is what we are talking abou?. Why do you continue to talk about this issue when I have made myself perfectly clear? We have already covered these arguments before.

Moon, from now on when you attribute a statement to me, please furnish the quote in context so I can determine what you are getting at. ''So far you are the one making strange claims about intelligent casual factors.''

Pyro, your attacks are becoming more vicious and against the supposed aims and rules of the forum. If you are the expert you claim to be, why not explain the points I have raised instead of demeaning me for raising them? I can't see where your comments do anything to further the knowledge of anyone, they coarsen the discourse. You seem to think I am the only person around that has questions about the explanations about evolution. If you want to have disagreements with me personally, be man enough to do it on private mail.

Moon, you have to think deeper. Chemical reactions do occur when certain substances contact each other. It's a matter of electron transfer and equlibrium according to individual valences of the combinants. In inorganic chemistry the reaction is spontaneous and occurs immediately upon contact. In organic compounds, the reaction may need a catalyst and/or heat. In living tissue the reactions for genetic replication are timed and seem planned. This is why they say genes contain information. They may occur at a certain time(baldness, puberty, genetic diseases), and under certain conditions. They are not spontaneous and occur with reason. Genetic activity is directed and time sensitive as if someone is controlling the process. It is not random or chaotic. Do a little homework on genetic chemistry and come to your own conclusions. I have never claimed that God has had a part in this and I have never claimed there is a God, but there is a reason. I do not believe that anyone can answer these biochemistry questions at this time according to what I have read. If an expert can do so, I will abide by the truth.

Essay, you want to discuss thermodynamics and you quoted Galapagos: ''As Galapagos said: "The laws of physics and chemistry govern the behavior of biological molecules such as monomers, polymers etc." This is an incorrect statement. A law DESCRIBES behavior, it does not initiate it. What is it that you want to say about the role of thermodynamics in evolution?

Moon, yes, some have been rude, but that shows a lack of understanding and knowledge. I have explained my views before, but here I go again. I do not believe in Gods. I do not believe in church dogma. I do believe that the answers to life, evolution, thought and reason lie somewhere below the molecular level and can be explained by understanding the force or impetus that causes carbon compounds to act as they do. Galapagos does not understand this question and he thinks his numerous links have answered it. He wants to throw names and insults around instead of confront the fact that we do not know. I have read his links and the questions remain unanswered. I am not religious, but I do think the universe has intelligent design. If not, how could there be order, orbiting, gravity, physical forces, evolution, and the universe itself? There should have been chaos if there was a big bang and we would not exist. This indicates to me that some type of planning has occurred. I do not know how to explain it. I believe in cause and effect. everything has a cause. Once you determine the cause, you may be able to create the effect. Once we understand molecular or particulate biochemistry, we may be able to create life itself. Although we have made self replicating compounds, we have not created life. If you take a soup of elements neccesary to make life and hit them with electricity, you may create replicating cells, but what else is needed to create life? read the

This thread shows that none of us are experts on this subject. I do not think the evidence of evolution is overwhelming as yet.When it is, there will be no questions from me. Galapagos, you have called me a liar but not presented the lie that I told. Would you like to apologize or produce the truth? You do not need to post any more links to Wikipedia since they do not answer my questions. You have finally gotten down to the level of enzymatic reactions but these are molecules which need something to motivate their activity. Every link you have posted gives reactions which must have some causal factor. Do you know what that factor is? None of the biochemical molecules have a brain, so what causes their activity?

Galapagos, you asked: ''Questor, answer this question: Do you or do you not accept both the overwhelming evidence and scientific consensus on the fact of evolution and common ancestry of the biota on Earth? Please do not avoid this question again.' I do indeed accept that the great majority of scientists have reached a consensus on this issue. I do agree there is abundant evidence for variation in species due to mutations or environmental conditions. I do not neccessarily agree that all life started with one single cell organism, since there could have been numbers of cells formed in the same environment for the same reasons. The multiplicity of species would lead me to believe there was more than one original progenitor. It also troubles me that the fossil inventory does not show a smooth continuum of evolution and some species seemed to appear relatively quickly from questionable ancestors. ( eg.human beings) I realize that millions of years have passed, but these same years passed for chimps and after millions of years they are still chimps. If you read my first post of this thread, I did not deny the tenets of evolution, but I have some questions about the package. Now, you answer this question. Comparing life to an orchestra, with the instruments being the genes and the players being the biochemical enzymes and the music being the product; who is the conductor, and who wrote the music?

I don't know why this argument continues. most are arguing macro events (mutations and natural selection) and I am asking for answers to micro events (biochemistry) of genetic change. In order for gene replication to take place, the DNA helix needs to unwind and each half must be copied and the helix rewound. All of this takes a large number of biochemical reactions along with the raw materials and energy to carry out the process. What is the motivating factor or force that directs all this to happen? What directs the helix to unwind? What causes the genes and alleles to line up properly so replication can continue? Yes, information and directions are encoded in the genes, but what is its chemistry?