SlinkFree

your a prat

Quote by Irish Eyes "I understand. That's happened to me as well. *My* solution is to now read all of the new posts before i reply to anything. As for my statement " This was posted before your tirade, so i'm sure you read it. " , it was totally uncalled for, and i apologize. If I had thought about it, I would have realized that there is no way for me to KNOW that you read it first, I just ASSUMED you read it as it directly follows the other one, and that you were attacking me for the heck of it. I've been on the defensive with you, and that is inexcusable. I haven't given you the benefit of the doubt, and that's not fair of me. I am trying to correct my attitude, and I appreciate your understanding. " -------------------------------- Many apologies IrishEyes, i dont mean to kick dirt on the above.

Quote by FreeThinker "See how that works? When an Atheist/ Freethinker is shown an error in their thinking, they accept fault, admit it and move on. ------------------- Oh Yeah... and when exactly have you taken upon this responsibility?

Quotes by FreeThinker: " I can see why, when someone is willing to forgo facts, they could accept any number of fairytales and myths." ------------------------ Were you not born with a childs innocence? Are you that old that you have forgotten what it is like to be inspired? Or has something seriously gone wrong in your life, that you now feel the need to destroy something that distinguished human beings from the rest of the species on this planet... the ability to hope. Look around. You talk about the problems in the world, yet your attitude is blatantly a "glass is half empty" one, Get off your *** and DO something about it instead of the rhetoric, or do you really not give a **** about humanity? ---------------------------------- "See how that works? When an Atheist/ Freethinker is shown an error in their thinking, they accept fault, admit it and move on. ------------------------------------------- Firstly, you imply that to be an athiest IS to be a free thinker. How pathetic. You mind is so closed to the rest of existence that i find it SO hard not to laugh every time you reject other peoples claims. As i have said before, IF you were a "free thinker" you would be open to other peoples opinions. YOU ALREADY HAVE YOUR MIND MADE UP DONT YOU? You have suceeded in not revealing anything about yourself to the best of my knowlege. Whether you are male/female, age, etc. If you had, perhaps you wouldnt hide behind your facade so much. I dont see this characteristic in anyone else within this forum. So, perhaps it is YOU who needs some Self-reflection, as you suggested to IrishEyes... Fortunatly you dont have to reveal anything about yourself, as I think we all have you figured out... Many people in this world enjoy the feeling of destroying the beliefs of others... Is it a feeling of power that is unobtainable in your real life? What experiences in your life have made you such a pessimist? Its nothing new... YOU ARE nothing new. Perhaps if you were to enlighten us, we could all understand your position better... although, i already know what you are about to say... You dont have to proove anything to anyone right? In the case that you do, and i end up eating my own words, i apologise in advance. But do us all a favour. Your position and beliefs stand just the same as a believers position does. Just because material evidence is in your favour, does NOT proove anything. How many scientific theories have previously been 'proven' flawed? If truth was fully revealed in this world, we wouldn't be having this debate, and i wouldn't be getting myself frustrated with you restricted thinking... Hey! Perhaps you should consider changing your name? -------------------------------- "... I don't BELIEVE in Evolution either. " I ACCEPT Evolution because it has the greatest amount of evidence to support it as the theory that best explains the diversity of life on earth. --------------------------------------- So in this case, do you ACCEPT the god of YOUR world to be a monster like you have previously suggested? Or are we all merely to make pleasant conversation with each other? And thats just reading ONE PAGE of you comments in the last few days... Imagine what can be said about the rest? mmmmmmm...

Yes i thik you are right. Perhaps i should have put it differently. My point tries to follow what you describe as "bringing the glory of G-d into the world" Could you not imagine the Utopia if all people reflected this in their lives? Dont get me wrong, NOT necessarily structured as such, like all major religions are, but definatly and truly understanding our place in the world, and our duty to each other as G-d's creations. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesnt most religions try to achieve this anyway? Christianity believes that Jesus died for it, Jews believe it is the world to come... I don't know Islam well enough to comment. I'm going to stop now because i'm getting on my own nerves, it sounds like i'm preaching AND i leave myself open to my athiest adversaries!!!

To me... much of western culture's socialogical problems reflect this... Furthermore, it is important to ask whether one positive aspect of religion could be that it DOES attempt to promote unselfishness. Would you not say this is true?

very interesting... again, religion aside, could this not be considered a major problem for Western Civilisation today? The fact that it generally encourages 'taking' and certainly not giving. I always find it amazing that when you watch something like a dating programme, the contestants always describe their perfect partner like "Well he/she has to be funny, good-looking, easy going, knows how to have a good time, rich, etc, etc." No-one ever says "well, my perfect partner is someone i can give MY all to, someone i can offer myself to" With the exception of the few, since when is the population of today's society generally concerned with what the individual can offer to the whole?

Quote "... in no way points towards soul/after-life/god/G-d. It could be a misunderstanding of mathematics (or existence) in general. Something is missing, the math doesnt work out. " Geko... Your probably best looking at the people I mentioned for reference... I found it very interesting source material that has led on... Agreed... "something IS missing". It has been suggested by these guys that the last remaining gap in the field of maths is Quantum Mechanics. A bizarre subject, that to the best of my current knowlege, suggests that the same physical object can exist many times over in many dimensions (trying not to use the term 'parallel universe' here). What is interesting about this point alone, is that in religious subjects like Kabbalah for instance, it discusses the connection and the stages between our physical universe, and the spiritual realm, and talks about how what one may call 'reality' is made up of these stages... or dimensions. Its a subject well worth looking into if you have a thirst for it... Another basic argument follows the question of conciouss. Is it physical - a product of neuro activity in the left hemisphere of the brain - the logical side; or is it corporeal and metaphysical, as the work of these scientists is beginning to suggest? Check this arcticle out... http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/biowissenschaften_chemie/bericht-12676.html From a very quick google search i can only find this arcticle... i'm sure you can find more.

see you tomorrow guys

"Sounds very native american slinkfree. Have you studied/paid attention to their customs? " Actually I haven't... but might look into it... Thanks!!!

Quote "Would you mind explaining as i think it seems to point the other way?" I thought I had skirted this idea in the paragraphs above... but anyway. These are some scientists, including Neurologists, psychiatrists, and mathematicians, whose work findings are beginning to reflect my point. As I stated Gregory Chaitin, Chief Maths dude for IBM says: Quote "The mind is mathematical. The thinking is logical. However, mathematics is starting to be forced to confront it's own limitations and is even underlining and prooving that there has to be more there!" (Soul Searching, C4, 11/03) Other examples worth checking out include Louis Sass, Clinical Psycologist, Rutgers Uni... Harold Bloom, Prof, Yale Uni... Johnjoe McFadden, Molecular Geneticist, Surrey Uni... Iian McGilcrist, Oxford Uni... I can find more sources if you would like.

more and more, science seems to point the finger towards design.

agreed Tim...

Quote "Yes I agree that people"find god" because of any number of emotional and irrational reasons. Thus the way you get that monkey off your back is to stop thinking irrationally. " but that is exactly the point Free Thinker... the way it was before Enlightenment and the Renaisance was that 'the soul' for example was given by G-d. After Enlightenment this was (rightly) rejected as authoritarian, so 'the self' replaced the soul. Since then the work of some of the worlds best scientists have illustrated that this 'self' is a product of the left hemisphere of the brain... the logical side, and the side that makes sense of the world around us... the right side, the side that imagination, intuition, and creativity comes from is largely not understood... The Irrational side. Moreover, even in Mathematics... the language of logic is beginning to find pockets of irrational mathematical laws that do not relate to the larger inter-connecting mathematical laws. Singularities. Quantum Physics is by far irrational... but it is beginning to show that the language of logic is echoing the language of religion! Look at the work of Gregory Chaitin, one of the chief mathematitians for IBM for reference. The point is that using logic to explain everything is somewhat naive, and even scientifically unfounded!

Another reason is probably what you mean by being 'superstitious'. By writing the word god (G-d) down wholely, i know that however it is written, it will not last forever. G-d will last forever, hence being infinate, and the concept of forever going beyond physical comprehention. Are we worthy enough as finite beings to write down an infinate-refering word when we know it will not last forever? G-d is the way to refer to the infinate being, within physical boundaries. It has a beginning G, and and end d. the - refers to the metaphysicality of G-d...

"Why are you AFRAID to type the "o" in god? " The simple answer is that, not only do i believe G-d to not only be an infinate being, but one that I was created to serve to the best ability. The reference to G-d without the 'o' as you suggest is not quite a matter of fear, although in hindsight the bible states that you should "love" and "fear" G-d in the same sentence, rather it refers to G-d out of respect. Many major religions believe that human beings are created within the image of G-d, although human beings 'sin' and are therefore not perfect. G-d however, infinate and beyond physical comprehention, is perfect. !!!THIS I CANNOT PROVE!!! It boils down to faith... In many ways you are right... it is old and passe according to the ocularcentric and materialist world in which we live today, but it is the way i choose to refer to an entity of the highest possible worth, as i believe G-d is. I hope that clears it up...

that element of frustration aside... do you guys think there could be problems with meditation, ie. by reaching a state of conciousness, that might cut off the connection with the physical? Ive heard stories in the past of people meditating on such high levels that they literally dont return... and yes free thinker, they might have religious roots, but before you start... that doesnt make them any less valid... i think my point is that in many ways, human beings have a fundamental desire for well... whatever you may wish to call it... transcendence, escapism, etc. its just that to me, it seems that this desire to elavate oneself is fundamental to humanity...

"Why are you afraid to type the "o"?" I thought i answered this question earlier... obviously you are getting sloppy, read your replies... however, this 'O' is just for you, it can stand for whatever you like, but i can think of a few suited adjectives... as for your name, i dont think there is anything 'free thinking' about you. You merely remind me of a shadow of extinct post-modern thought. if you were really a free thinker, you would a. respect the views of other parties without picking them appart like dirt you picked off your shoe... and b. you would make an effort to apply your own logic instead of hiding behind the pretence of other peoples quotes. Who do YOU think YOU are fooling?

what are you searching for Free Thinker?

"Doesnt B contradict A? " er... how exactly?

and for blind faith, not only does it happen in religions, also in science. "what i mean is that people believe in science w/out even knowing it! like math, in a right triangle, why is it that c^2=a^2+b^2 ask somebody, not many people know how to prove it. " Tim.. i agree. But in many ways, i think that the further science progresses, the further it points a finger at a design. For me, the world/universe is far to complex as to be chance. It is the search for truth that led me to this forum, it is the search for truth that propels me through this crazy life. In my opinion, the world would be an empty place without this drive, and without belief... as i said before, i think its a crazy when you look at our world and realise that in effect, whatever our religion, beliefs or mind-sets, we are all searching for the same thing... we are all searching for G-d.

"You say this is a "justification". I can only assume you are looking for "justifications" since you can't find any PROOF? " Free Thinker... upon closer inspection... why is it that you feel the need to misinterpret words... I do not mean "Proof" otherwise, i would have said "proof"! Justification means: Something, for example, a reason or circumstance, that justifies an attitude. Proof however, means: Proof: evidence that serves to establish a fact or the truth about something Get YOUR facts right...

Thankyou for your welcome Tim... its more than i got from the others!!

Quote "So yes, as you originally stated, it is NOT a PROOF, it is a "justification". You are struggling to "justify" accepting something that LACKS proof. And you seem to have found one that you don't want to look at critically enough so that you CAN justify it. " You seem to think that i am not quite certain about the subjects i have offered you. Whether you choose to accept them or not is not my prerogative. I have studied enough of the religious and philosophy to be quite happy with my ideas. Thats not to say, that i am not very interested with the ideas of others. However, once again you show utter arrogance by seeming to be the authority on all things anti-religion, so i am struggling to take what you say seriously. Faith is exactly does exactly what is says on the tin... that is why it is called faith. Quote "If it was "impossible for human beings to understand the concept of 'Infinity'", Physics (as a Science) would not exist. " Science strives for truth, as do we all, but science cannot will only ever mirror religion, not prove it correct. Besides... this does not aswer my statement anyway... Quote "Actually, yes I can. I have been trained in meditation techniques that allow you to let your mind go blank. Achieve the void. Reach nirvana. Not think about elephants. Transend. " Well its a wonder that we are still engaged in conversation if you have already experienced trancsendence... Remind me again, are you not an athiest?

Quote "Ah, so we are now going to have a scientific "experiment"? What happened to "justification"? " Did i say anything about scientific?