silverslith

See, even if that was reliable data, AND if protons were the only energy source its not enough to get you out of the woods. higher energy means more velocity and so more flux/s so 8 hours with a low thermal conductivity material like polyethene is trouble. Because of the desperation to believe the impossible no-one is prepared to look at the electron contribution. 100000/cubiccm at12000km , electrons up to 5Mev is bad enough. "100000/ cubiccm at 50000km energies are around 7MeV" is actually a lot more heat than that 50Mev Proton estimate (tsoline mikaelian, "spacecraftcharging and radiation hazards to spacecraft", MIT resource I linked earlier which you couldnot save (sharing violation) but I printed and scanned some of for everyones benefit.)- Id love to know if its still accessible if anyone wants to check. Happy to scan and post the rest if its not. It references over 100 peer reviewed scientific papers. If you only want to believe unreferenced Nasa propaganda releases then good luck with staying in touch with reality. The sooner reality is accepted the sooner space exploration can dislodge the chunk of political filth its been choking on the last 40 years and move forward again. Lash together 6 spshut solid boosters and stick your astronauts in the middle of a spshut ext fuel tank and you have a workable system that doesn't require over 100 ton of dead mass as shields. Better still put your crew inside a gasoline snowball and plumb liq H thru it on the way to the engines. Not too hard but no-one can do it untill everyone's ready to accept what Nixon put over on them. How long are people going to insist on keeping their blinkers? I just want to see stuff happen. As long as a myth needs to be maintained to keep NASA from public wrath and resulting loss of funding nothing can move forward. Do you think ultra-propagandist FOX would do a documentary to show all the easily understandable, visable fraud in Apollo if they didn't understand how neccessary burying this fantasy is to achieving some progress? Did anyone notice how soft, dunelike all the contours, crater rims etc on the moon look in the Jap probe footage a few months ago? deep powder all over the moons surface from constant particle bombardment. Do I need to repeat stating the absurdity of " Identical chemical and isomeric ratio composition to earthrocks" in Apollo "moonrocks" . Its a huge trajedy that people have devoted their lives to theories of the moons formation based on that "evidence". Seriously. Is everyone here prepared to live in a fantasy rather than touch base with reality due to some propagandist view of superioriority of US citizens? Russia, China, India HAVE stated that its too radioactive to send humans to the moon. As have NASA by planning their "Radiation belt remediation" Does no-one have the nouce to see that enviroments with so much particle energy that you'd have to hug a fission reactor core at full revs to get near it on earth are not survivable for humans. Let alone be traversable with the same badge readings as for same time in LEO equatorial. This thread is full of people that cannot bring themselves to look at data, resources, calculations because they are desperate to hang on to legends. News flash folks. Its not just other peoples politicians that get their jollies pulling the wool. Basic alpha primate phenomina. Last computer I lost was when I was checking my own derivations of epicyclic gearbox formula. Too late I realised it was a Nasa page. Same as the last two times. Everything working fine but for the motherboard. Love to know how they do it. Best of luck cultists:hihi: .

Space probe electronics are rated in megarads. Roughly a million times more than humans can handle. This just means it has chunky non-miniturised circuits, micro electronics just get beaten up to easily. You also have to realise that circuit boards are a good hundred times thinner than humans. So a particle travelling at 100 MeV might drop around 100x100=10000 x less rads (energy) in a circuit board than a human. I do think you are on to a telling point with this archaic0. If megarad electronics can handle say 1 billion times as much as a human: Why bother to build them this tough. If a human can handle it with 1.5 inches of polyprop shield then it would be far easier to whack a few microchips in a brick sized chunk of plastic shielding. That way you'd have far more computing power than you'd ever get from your chunky megarad circuitboards. If the flux of particles fast enough to get through isn't enough to bother a human then its an obvious waste of time making electronics that can handle 10 billion times more energy flux. Obviously we need to so we do. And shielding is not a good answer because you need feet thick not inches. The question as Craig has indicated is whether the energy distribution is maxwellian- bell shaped - the signature of a system in stable equilibrium of inputs and outputs, as the MIT resource on radiation hazards states. Or is it diminishing exponentially in quantities as energy increases, with no significant amount of decently energised particles at dangerous energies as NASA loudly proclaims. Simular to their loud charts showing rad belt particle densitys 100 billion times less than the referenced studies (cladis 71, anspaugh 82) in the mikaelian paper. And their widely spread solar X-Ray flux figures that are around 10000x less than that which you get if you go to base principles and calculate it from the blackbody output of the suns coronal mass. Admitedly they can get away with that one easier because the x-ray flux is 99.99% absorbed by earths radiation belts before it gets to our ionisphere. Not on the moon though. Theres no doubt that there is a widely publicised refutation to every angle on this subject. Easy to find and believe if you're looking for reasurance of that treasured belief. The blue pills in the matrix of Apollo. Unfortunately I have a head that explodes in angry colours and dischord at the clashes of physics when I visualise these NASA proposed models of a cosy human space enviroment. This donut of particles around the equator of just livable energy that never soaks down into our clear LEO enviroment, nor goes near the Auroras, because Nasa wants to sneak past it at 30deg south, and obviously that auroral spectral signature PROVES that the Auroras are nothing to do with the radiation belts because humans can't shield or handle particles with energy that high and apollo did, so there! The belts dip low in the south atlantic magnetic anomaly. In SE asia field strengths are strong enough to permit high energy particles with gyro-radius large enough to near the atmosphere. Manned orbital probes are not sent through either of these zones. Nor in polar orbits. Satillites don't even last long in LEO polar, so its over 20000km alt for polar sats as a general rule. No space shuttle has gone on a lunar flyby and Apollo is the only claim to have taken humans past 700km above the earth. Only one reason. Nixon didn't like admiting that russia was far in advance of US space tech and the gap was widening. Nixon liked being popular. China and India are not behind in todays technology. And Russian rockets still lift a lot more, and do it far more efficiently than the best US ones as they always have. The 60's is a long time ago technology wise, and if Apollo was real then every space nation would be putting men on the moon routinely. Even the space shuttle could do it in that universe. They've all had a good giggle and moved on with reality. Its time America got over its ego and did the same. They are stuck in the Matrix of belief with the primate leftbrain deleting reality that tries to challenge the fantasy. A powerful bonding mechanism in the primate troop. Much better at cementing a group than believing something real that outsiders can buy into. Nasa's "radiation belt remedial" scheme is the idea of using high power radio waves to disrubt stability and drain the belts into the auroras to make it possible for manned craft to traverse them. The belts are our shield from the suns x-ray flux. It is what boosts the energy of particles in the trapped particle belts to an average of what the magnetic field strength can contain at that altitude, with steady and equal inputs and outputs from energy sharing. My advice: stay indoors for a few weeks if they start sodding around with "rad belt remediation":naughty: And if you're tempted to publically point out discrepencies in NASA's info on this topic then after don't visit any of their pages with a computer you like. Ive lost 3 this last year since I dug up MIT's little paper and posted it here. - visit NASA page-lockup- deadmotherboard. just like that.

The idea of utilising the energy content of waste or grown biomass that is based on hydrogen oxidation and retaining the carbon for other uses is great. Carbon is the most useful atom for structural purposes and producing only h2o from our storable/transportable energy systems would be terrific. A no-o2 high temp enviroment is needed for this. The solar furnace is a good system to engineer such a device. To maximise the efficiency heat exchangers are necessary to avoid wasting the thermal energy applied to the processed hydrocarbon/carbohydrate mass. The system should extract the heat of the hot charcoal going out and use it to preheat the raw material coming in before the solar section. The fluid circulated as an energy carrier in this loop would preferably be an inert gas. A lower temp system is possible using supercritical h20, ethanol, methanol. Ethanol may be the best one, giving you a system with under 300degC temp for good reduction emphasised, catalysed decomposition, and a liquid working fluid in liquid phase under achievable pressure. You could either store the mainly h2, some ch4 and co gas for later use or drive a turbine. Converted auto turbos would work well with suitable high speed alternator design. The charcoal would come out as a slurry.

Cryosphere Today - Northern Hemisphere Cryosphere Animation is a good animation of the last month. the refreeze is beginning to happen, about a month latter than normal. The Arctic Icecap has for the last 2 months been a swirling mess of broken ice and open water. The northwestern passage above Canada has spent a month completely clear of ice, and the north eastern above russia has only had a few bergs around severnaya zemlya. When it broke up it was quite spectacular, a huge spiral visibly circling the pole from norway to baffin is in less than a week sept 12, Polar Sea Ice Cap and Snow - Cryosphere Today Of course this is square area of Ice. Its bottomed around 31% less area than last year and if you estimate a simular reduction in thickness then you have less than half the volume of polar sea ice of last year. Why is this 30 years ahead of predictions made 6 months ago? Probably because Algae grow in the underside of thin sea ice that sun can penetrate, absorbing energy. Open water has been seen in -15degC due to this phenomina. They have now been mixed through all the Artic sea ice and will hasten a melt and breakup next summer. Hopefully the gulfstream will accelerate in a spiral driven by the circumpolar winds and subduct at the pole. It would bake siberia, greenland, and north canada, but this may reverse the plummet of oceanic phytoplankton C02 absorbsion / 02 production that in 10 years has dropped over 10%. Said to be likely due to reduced upwelling of nutrient due to gulfstream slowing. The 10% fall is equivalent to half humanities CO2 output so halving our output (not likely any time soon) would have little effect at present. If the phytoplankton continues to decline at that rate or more the oceanfoodchain they sustain will collapse. Its certainly looking like we couldn't slow things down now even by stopping ALL our CO2 emissions. Too many +ve feedback systems at work. Planktos - Home Seem to be on the right track. Is it possible to fertilise enough of the Oceans to stop our runaway greenhouse? Certainly not if everyone just ignores whats going on for fear of causing stockmarket crashes. Reminds me of Ben Eltons "Stark". "no-one should be expected to damage their profits"

Of course most of the Us presidents of the last 50 years are oppressive and corrupt dictators. Everyone knows George organised the planes being flown into buildings and the missile clearly visible hitting the pentagon in internationally publicised video. And the plane shot down in the rural area as was clear on international media 11/7/2001. Basic setting up of a replacement demon for communisim, which had rebranded itelf out of the propaganda. Number three is inarguably standard for US companies addicted to selling what costs them near nothing, made by offshore slaves. number four is unfortunately standard policy for the US and must be when they have long ago consumed all they really have and rely on exponential economic growth for the survival of their economy. A Cancer on the planet earths biosphere. Making everyone buy their nuclear fuel is the only hope for even short term survival of the US econobomb.:naughty:

A big limitation is obviosly the need for hardened electronics. This could be avoided if a sensible earth-moon vehicle is used. putting the goods inside a snowball of frozen fuel is the answer for getting any microelectronics through the rad belts. over 50 tons of shielding is needed otherwise. If you use your fuel as the shielding then no probs. Daytime moon is still a bit messy tho.:naughty:

No Question humanity has been caught in an unfortuitous timespace at present. The earths climate systems were at their most stressed at the end of an interglacial when the temp and co2 was maxing. We've pushed things over the edge with our "anthropogenic" contributions. The North polar icecap has disintegrated this year into a swirling mess of bergs and open water with less than half the sea ice mass of last year. The ability of the ecosphere to absorb co2 and produce 02 has reduced over 10% the last decade alone. Equivalent to over half the co2 produced by humans. This an exciting time. more change in the earths ecosphere than any time in millions of years. Why no mass media coverage? are they afraid of harming profits?:naughty:

Its clear that Apollo was a myth as our study of the radiation belt and the specifications of the apollo craft reveal that even my conservative estimates of the radiation flux and heating effect, based on average energy of 50MeV which I now understand are most likely in the range of 5 to 10 times lower than actual, reveal that attempting to shield the radiation from the apollo crew in the craft claimed to have made the trip would have quickly melted it (especially if polyethylene was the shield as is now claimed) and would have within a few minutes, probably as little as 5 or less created an irreversible rising temperature situation that would certainly killed them. The proton penetration data when measured against the shield thickness of the capsule and the maxwellian proton energy distribution centred around the region of 100MeV in the 1200km-5000km altitude that we have examined demonstrates that a lethal dose would have made it through the shields in likely no more than 1 or 2 seconds. The Psychologic forces at work to resist incorporating this knowledge into the cerebrum are simular to the resistance to acceptance of the discovery that earth was not the centre of the universe. It is no less a pleasant belief to mankind, and particularly Americans who can constantly fall back on it to prop up belief that their technology of the 60's has not been matched outside their nation. I have found in researching this problem that science (with its dedication to logic, reason and a critical attitude that I love so much) has been assaulted very badly in this story by the narcissistic personality disorders of the political sociopath (that make them prouder of their ability to feed us lies spun with ego grease than anything else, and very capable of accepting and basking in praise for things they only lie about doing. Believe me I have studied this psycology in depth). I am very bitter about this and immensely sad for the damage to the brains of so many who must as knowledge advances try to incorporate into their brains the discoveries of physics incompatible with the apollo myth. The mechanisms of cognitive dissonance are very powerful and for many will be overwhelming in this case. Only the most dedicated to logic over emotion will be able to resist creating and believing irrational explanations to allow belief in the Apollo myth to be maintained. I have returned to this thread after two weeks of soul searching and ethical and moral discussion on this situation with every intelligent person I mix with. In the end I had to decide that self censoring because people here may not be able to deal with bitter truth, and out of instinct for self preservation, is the worst insult I could deliver to the intellectual capacity of individuals in this community. I think a thread in Psychology should be started to help people understand what unconcious mental forces are at work as they try to deal with the scar on their mental model of the universe that the apollo myth has created. I do think we must bury the myth because once you incorporate discord into your brain of this magnitude it becomes progressively easier to accept and believe the illogical. This is the slippery slope to detaching mentally from reality. It results in mental disorders like Schitzophrenia and psychopathy. It also opens you up to easy manipulation by Politicians and other insanely exploitational addicts of power. :)

Natuarally spin is eliminated easily by equatorial tracking systems. Simple technology available to any one with a few old car wrecks. Active optics where any descent mirrors have been equiped for years with hydraulic distorters and lasers to map asmospheric distortion have removed any advantage to telescopes beyond the earths surface. Except for the wavelength of light problem that limits resolving power at a distance. A dissapointing example is that the moon with its easy and cheap access by unmanned probes has been disallowed any close viewing by orbital telescopes that are common above our heads and would allow easy high resolution views of the surface of our nearest celestial neighbour. A symptom of how science has been abducted by the need to preserve myth served up with a large helping of ego massage by the masters of the ancient primate art of deception via smooth lies spun with tempting titbits of ego boosting compliment.;)

The attached moon pic is a photo of the moon in the X-ray spectrum. I am certain that Nasa is correct that these X-rays behave very differently on the moon to here on earth, and are less penetrating to sheets of paper than ordinary light. I am certain that they cannot have any effect on photography or astronauts with aluminium foil shielded suits on the moon. The black body X-ray production of the Suns 1 million Kelvin corona is supplemented by production of X-rays by particles in the Solar wind interacting with each other and solids they hit through the processes of: Charge transfer, Thomson scattering, Bremsstrahlung, Inverse Compton scattering, Synchrotron radiation, X-ray fluorescence, and atomic emission. Exact figures on space X-ray flux are hard to pin down with variations of 1000x and over in stated average figures at 1 AU from various sources. I have cleared up my last Radiation belt uncertainties: The energy distribution of particles at various altitudes in the rad belts. The exit mechanism that must equal the input from the narrow column of particles accelerated towards earths equator in the magnetail, with its volume of billions of amps worth of particles in the equatorial ring current. The distribution is Maxwellian or bell curve shaped. The bell is centered on the energy of particles where the net force vector for a transverse to mag field loop is equal to the force of gravity over that time. Because the outer half of the loop is in weaker magfield than the inner the integration of centripetal force vectors in a full loop results in a total outward force. For this reason the stable altitude for trapped particles is lower the higher their energy. These factors mean that 50MeV is a good conservative assumption for proton energy between 1000 and 5000 km altitude. The rad belt particles have built up to the point where density causes enough energy exchange to cause extraction to balance input on average. At the ends of their orbits between 15 and 30 degrees of the magnetic pole the circles are more flat to the ground and this allows some downwards drift each time they are reflected by the magnetic fieldlines. The Auroras are the primary extraction mechanism confirmed by their visible energy being mainly Bremsstrahlung related, a high energy process appropriate to the high energy particles in the inner belt but not particles from the magnetail. Another clue that the Auroras are radiation belt not magnetail produced is that they respond immediately to solar storms, not days later. The Auroral extraction mechanism is to be thanked for the bubble of nice space centered on the equator. Particles moving lower than 1200km altitude equatorial are cleaned out by the polar atmosphere. If the Rad Belts were largely lens shaped equatorial systems then there would be no Low Earth Orbit environment, and equatorial Auroras. I am glad that the Western culture that we live in has such high regard for sharing knowledge and free speech. I’m certain that the serious lockups and screens full of gibberish my computer has experienced immediately on visiting any Nasa site since 24hrs after I started to research the space radiation environment are completely coincidental. I believe that European Space Agency pages taking hours instead of previously less than a minute to get to me is also coincidental. I’m sure none of the US govt pages I have visited have made use of the fine print telling me that I have given them permission to send me cookies to scan my hard drive. I’m completely sure that an Astronaut equipped with Diapers and a Mallet is not enroute to teach me some respect.:)

“ Sigh! completely wrong. more bombs easier bombs, smaller lighter dirtier bombs. Yeah, great stuff that Pu. 3 neutrons per fission so breeding more of it than you burn is easy! what a great idea! more and more Pu being trucked around and reprocessed by Homers I don't think so. Crush them and reprocess for weapons easy as. They just want the pebbles shipped to america for reprocessing and back again. Gotta get the bucks for america right mr Leyland good payola for serving up an energy monopoly I bet mr Leyland. Politicians and media suck. They both think greasy *** licking is far better than truth or understanding anything.

:hihi: No! thorium is only useable as fission fuel if converted to u233 in a breeder reactor, a far easier material to make bombs out of than u235 or pu239. No because it is at best as expensive as a pu breeder reactor, 100+ times as expensive if an accelerator is used to achieve a sustained reaction. U238 is stockpiled already and a known factor with all emergent problems understood in its breeding. No mining and separation from the 10x as much radioactivity in thorium decay chain products in the ore to be left to fly around the enviroment and generate further indirect expense through health spend is neccesary to breed from u238 stockpiled in over 1 billion kilograms of ready material. (less a few thousand tons causing Iraqi cancer and mutant babies to go 20X) The decay chain elements from this uraniums ore are already out there. Eg 83g of polonium 210 with as much radioactivity as 1 billion kilos of U238. You would not believe how little it takes to alexander you. No reaction is possible without breeding to u233 with neutrons. The accelerator scenario will simply not be done because of major extra expense ofver straight breeders and is only being suggested as a top up to the neutron budget via spallation. It is entirely possible for a portion of the reactor to go above critical and cause a runaway cascade even if the proton beam is stopped. Thorium is not turned into 233 when hit by protons Exactly the same as pu239 breeders making some pu238. great! we can have more snap reactors to fall on us.:hihi: No problem at all for bomb making. Hells bells, give me a piece of 4 inch steel pipe, couple kilos of potassium permanginate and aluminium powder, 15 kg of u233 in two pieces, a mickey mouse clock and a handgun, I'll make you one in 10minutes. actually they are only considering composite systems that also use and breed pu Nope. bombard them with high energy protons and you fission them. Not a shred of sense or truth in that paragraph at all actually. Unless you mean old american ones. An engineer was telling me last week that they are the only countries ones he won't go near. You burn the Pu in ordinary current reactors anyway. we don't need it to make bombs anymore. we gonna be able to make 100x as many from thorium than all the pu we could ever make from uranium!:hihi:

Second you on both statements! Other than the obvious advantage that they are self building structures that are much cheaper than superconducting magnetic toruses to setup, the other advantage for fusion is that you can form a big low pressure one and then by increasing the pressure in the containment sphere, compress them to very high density without destroying the magnetoplasmoid.

Yep! As long as its not fake crab (shark meat mushed up and washed to remove all the oils) or tuna from a can (asked if it was fresh in a sushi restaurant once and got pretty mad when it turned out canned. Apparently fresh from a can!) used to make it a lot. I'm more of a sashimi man now though. Can think of some good raw without serious salivation. Trevally is one of the best. Any tuna, kingfish salmon or trout - the pelagics- are great raw. Bottom feeding scumfish like snapper or cod not so good.

Interesting ideas mike. Thanks for revising for us. Hope your computer blues are on the mend. We had a synthetic petrol plant in nz that turned methanol to long alkanes using an aluminosilicate catalyst and high heat and pressure. Maybe what was really happening is some of those deep extremophiles invaded it as a surface colony. I was under the impression most of them got their energy from sulphur. I'm sure its a very complex ecology though. Many of them have invaded our local hotsprings. microorganisms have been fingered for producing tiny uranium pearls recently. I hope we don't have to worry about proliferation. On the other hand we could solve a lot of problems by telling george and giving him a shovel.:) The intelligence is accurate! honest! One thing Craig. I'm not so sure much subducted carbon and silica ends up mixing deep in the mantle. Its light, full of water and melts easily. Its lighter than the crustal rocks and formes plumes and magma chambers as it rises due to this density difference. Deep volcanic sources produce heavier basalt lava.

These are also the latest buzz in plasma bottles for fusion reactors. I couldn't find a good picture I can link here so I wizzed up a model. The superconducting coils winding around the torus the short way have been ditched in favour of hyperconducting sheet currents of electrons. Though in a gaseous medium the hyperconduction has simular current per cross section area as superconductors. Like superconduction hyperconduction fiercely resists any change in the magnetic field it experiences. In this way the fast +ve particles travelling the long way around the torus are maintained at high pressure while a near vacuum is maintained in the polodial field mantle, sheathed inside its hyperconducting spherical shell. The hyperconducting sheet currents form tough impervious barriers against the pressure differentials. Natural ball lightnings in air sustain for up to many minutes without any power input. The air does not move through them but around them. Why ones moving at 300km/s in air are so amazing.:)

oh come on man:doh: oil has not been found in the molten mantle where the plates are subducted to. aluminosilicates catalyse the polymerisation of long chain and even the spherical carbon polymers to be found in oil. Its how life began.

Seem what i've conceived with my particle storage toroids is called a magnetoplasmoid. Others are talking about them as the future for spacecraft propulsion unsurprisingly. good pictures and description of how they work: Neoteric Research, Inc This is the natural incarnation of them called ball lightening. I never expected the particle stacks could survive in an atmosphere but it seems that due to a superconductor like phenomomina called hyperconductivity that occurs in fast coherent particle streams they are extremely stable. I mean large balls visible from 80km accelerating to and moving through the atmosphere at 300km/s without power added! The IPCS may be able to do this. The things have been filmed moving around in forests and burning branches off trees! Great news for our shielding requirements. The magnetic field building property I mentioned is extremely valid. Enormous fields can be built without power useage to sustain them. I was concerned about stability problems with the particle toroid storage but the creators of our universe have gifted us the goods.:hyper:

Actually if you are in a low flat (eg desert like) region the flood from a mega tsunami could be survived in a boat. Provided it doesn't smash you into anything. If you weren't on anything that floats survival chance would be close to zero. If you can get your boat into deep ocean before it arrives then you'll barely notice it go by. Except for vicious tidal currents appearing. Not helpful unless you are already there cause they will travel at 1000+kmph

Sorry, probably a little off topic as you guys are discussing crowd psychology. I mentioned it as a studied "group mind" phenomina. As its been shown to happen without any communication between geographically seperated humans and also monkeys on different islands its not at all like crowd psychology.

No problem. I enjoyed it. Talking to myself is boring.:phones:

Oh you Americans and your obsession with nukiller bombs and your primitive colonialist urges.:phones: Have you considered how much of your nuclear energy is wasted with most going the wrong way and how much energy is needed to re-erect your magfield and how many missiles you'd need to accelerate for a month or more and slow down for a simular time and how much energy to accelerate and deccelerate the remaining missiles and that bombs only release tiny percentages of the nuclear energy in their fissionables?:D

Please tell me thats not your lightbulb again michael. one more: who's afraid of the big bad supersonic shockwave in the pressure chamber.(I am) Trust me, if this was tried as a reusable rocket, even if it did not blow up the first time it was launched, it would blow up nastily some time soon. Pretty please keep your reactors in strong containment that could handle smashdown and thermal exhausts are very inefficient use of reaction mass and nuclear energy.

yep, I'm with you moon. And I'm pretty confident that something like I've proposed on "clean nuclear for my starship" that integrates magnetic shields, reactor and relativistic thrust systems can not only be achieved within our lifetimes but will allow us to get to Alpha Centauri and far beyond in less than a year of shiptime. Sadly if war was the motivator we'd probably do it in a decade. :shrug: