Israel & the Middle East...

[Boerseun]

Soooo....

 

The US support for Israel is to have a foothold in the Middle East, the Hotbed of Oil?

The US support for Israel stems from a feeling of need to protect the victim of Hitler's insanity?

The origin of global terrorism and attacks against US assets by terrorists stem from the US' unconditional support for Israel?

 

I think all of the above has merit, but in the final analysis, it's bull.

 

There have been, since the origin of the written word, problems in the Middle East, and most of it centers around Israel (or the territory called Palestine before the creation of the State of Israel).

 

What I'm getting at, is that there were serious problems there long before the creation of the United States.

 

Why is that? Is it purely theological in nature? Is it still because of the Crusades? They were killing each other and hating each other long before the Crusades happened. Matter of fact, infighting there amongst the kids of Abraham happened long before even the Birth of Christ.

 

Do we only know about all the ancient troubles in the Middle East because that is where writing originated, and we have records of that, and not, say, records of the pre-BC Scots slugging it out with the pre-BC English?

 

What I'm getting at, is that the Middle East seems to have been trying to self-destruct ever since the first human set foot there. And it's still going on today. I read in a Time/Life book on newspaper headlines that one of president Kennedy's main topics on his agenda was "Peace in the Middle East". Same with virtually any other US president of the 20th century.

 

Why is this, and do you see any resolution to this? Personally, I don't. If I was the US prez, I'll just build a big fence around the whole of the Middle East and let 'em slug it out once and for all inside the fence and get it over with. I reckon that President St. Juliette Obama, who'll win the presidency in 2454AD riding on the ticket of being the first cross-dresser lesbian black catholic one-legged president, will find "Peace in the Middle East" top of the agenda.

 

Suppressing terrorism is one thing, winning the war in Iraq another. But creating 'Peace in the Middle East' is a completely new animal. Is it even possible? And if you think it is, how will we go about achieving it?

[Racoon]

Its all Religion and Oil.

Let the Sunnis and Shiites kill each other.. Divide and conquer.

 

Isreal has a few tricks up its sleeve.. They went after Hezzbolah.. and have US military technology..

 

Nobody is innocent.

 

There will be no peace as long as religious fundamentalism is prevalent; and as long as capitalists want to exploit resources.

[InfiniteNow]

At some point enough people will just say stop, and these traditions of hate will be disposed of along with the government officials holding to old wars.

 

At some point, enough people just have to say stop.

[HydrogenBond]

If one looks in the Old Testament, the Jews were set aside as God's chosen people. I am a spiritual person and have no problem with this divine tradition. I'm just a bug, who I am to question this.

 

If one was an aetheist and did not believe in God, or was from another religion that did not believe the bible was the final authority (other books also carry weight), the idea of any group of people beleiving they are the chosen people, is technicially racism.

 

It is subtle. If one believes in the bible there is no conflict or racism in this belief since it is santified. But if that reference source is not given credibility, due to aetheism or because one has other beliefs, the Jews by assuming the role of a chosen race and believing it (even in good faith) is racism under those conditions. It is not one way or the other but a unique hybrid between santification and racism, depending on one's beliefs. I don't see racism through the lense of my belief system, but other people have different lenses and some will see racism. If it quacks it is a duck unless God says it is something else.

 

In the Arab world, they have their own lense for seeing things. By the nature of their hatred, they probally see racism and don't give too much weight to Jewish sanctification. The goal of the radical Muslim's to boot the infidels and spread their faith to entire world. This belief creates a similar santified/racist hybrid. If one doesn't believe their reference, as they believe, the whole movement is based on racism. They beleive they are the superior race needed for the evolution of humanity.

 

In the United States, where religion and state are suppose to be separate, the United States does not equate Isreal with racism, because we include the Old Testament tradition in our intellectual accessment, inspite of the separation of church and state. This is because our culture was built on Judeo-Christian ideals. I have no problem with that. But others who have other beliefs, and assume there is a conscious separation of church and state, might see the Uinted States supporting a group of racists. In other words, the Arabs believe we have taken sides in this very ancient competition. It is very subtle, but the religious/racist coin has two sides, with most people only able to see one side.

 

The two sided coin creates a dual tension for such santification/racist cultures. There is an inner pressure to do God's will. But if one gets too full of themselves, it will create the impression of racism. This creates a social back pressure, to knock the racists down a peg or two. Between these two pressures, such cultures are forced to sail a course down the middle to satify both pressures. The tension in the Middle East may be an artifact of one or both cultures not sailing down the middle.

[Boerseun]

Pulling the 'States or fundamental Islam into this, does not supply an answer to the root cause. The Middle East, the region around modern Israel/old Palestine, was burning for ages before either the creation of the US, or even the advent of Islam. There's a deeper root cause here, as far as I'm concerned. And blaming it on either the US, Israel or Islam, is just putting a new label on a much, much older problem. And I can't, for the life of me, see what the problem is. But it surely predates any of the common modern-day culprits.

[infamous]

There's a deeper root cause here, as far as I'm concerned. And blaming it on either the US, Israel or Islam, is just putting a new label on a much, much older problem.

Absolutely Bo....

 

 

 

And I can't, for the life of me, see what the problem is. But it surely predates any of the common modern-day culprits.

Yes, it goes clear back to the time of Abraham, but that's as much as I can divulge in this forum because to give you a more defined answer, we'd be getting into Theology. If you want to know the answer to that riddle, write me a PM and I'll give you my interpretation.................................Infy

[CraigD]

IMHO, the most recent major cause of the troubled relations between Israel and its primarily Muslim neighbors is the result of a failure by the British foreign service to prevent radical political factions from gaining power in Israel in the 1940s.

 

A much older major cause of this problem was the policy established by Muhammad prior to 632 AM admonishing the expulsion of all non-Muslims from the Arab Peninsula, which had the effect of concentrating Jews, Christians, and other religious minorities in its north, in and around the location of ancient and present day Israel.

 

As long as a policy of expulsion of Jews from Muslim lands, Muslims from Jewish lands, or, to a lesser extent, any minority from any majority’s lands, or treatment of minorities as less than fully privileged citizens of these states, persists, I fear peace and social harmony in all of these lands will continue to be difficult to achieve and maintain.

[Boerseun]

I tend to agree, but then the question arise: Why bother? If we can't do anything about it, why make such a fuss over it?

 

The Muslims will never change their minds over the Jews and Zionism, and the Jews will never change their minds over Islam. Obviously, there might be exceptions, but if the above is the case, why should we bother about something that has no solution?

 

Is there actually a practical solution to this whole mess? :)

It's been going on for years, this mutual mudslinging between Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc., and, quite frankly, it's getting rather boring now.

 

Imagine a news headline from 1955:

"Middle East on the Brink of Peace"

 

Imagine a news headline from 2007:

"Middle East on the Brink of Peace"

 

I bet you'll see the same headline in 2525AD.

 

Since the creation of Israel after WW2, zero advance was made to this holy grail, Peace in the Middle East. I don't think it's possible, at all.

 

Change channels, this one is lame.

[Buffy]

Because the two sides have never been more divided *internally*. Hamas--which was voted in simply because people were tired of Fatah's corruption--and Fatah are at each-other's throats, and the folks in the middle are angry at both. In Israel, even Sharon decided to break with Likud and build his own centrist party, which if it were not for an Iranian-funded attack by Hezbollah, is actually predisposed to talk if there's someone to talk to, despite screams of "traitors" from Netanyahu and his ilk.

 

No its not obvious that we will have "peace in our time," but its the extra bodies that keep piling up on both sides that makes it worthwhile to at least *try*. It may take until 2025, but the more we work now, the sooner that it will happen.

 

By talking at all, we may manage to avoid a nuclear confrontation, that were we to say "heck with it" could blow up very easily.

 

Peace is worth it,

Buffy

[CraigD]

I tend to agree, but then the question arise: Why bother? If we can't do anything about it, why make such a fuss over it?

I believe we should bother because there is something we can do about it – though “we” in this case refers for the most part to the people of the Middle East, and to a lesser part, of other nations.

The Muslims will never change their minds over the Jews and Zionism, and the Jews will never change their minds over Islam.

Evidence shows that, except for a vocal, frequently violent minority, in many cases exaggerated, incited, and occasionally even bribed by advantage-seeking political factions, nothing in the minds of the majority of individuals in the region calling themselves Muslims, Jews, Christians, and the other religions, (including “none”) presents significant barriers to peace and domestic tranquility. The situation often depicted of majorities of people of various religions and ethnicities bent on one another’s mutual destruction is, IMHO, simply inaccurate, as is the notion that their religions require a state of unending belligerence.

Is there actually a practical solution to this whole mess?

The answer to this question is, I believe, Yes. The solution is nothing new or radical: representative governments enacting proactive laws to assure the protection of minorities and the proper enforcement of these laws.

Since the creation of Israel after WW2, zero advance was made to this holy grail, Peace in the Middle East.

I believe this characterization is inaccurate. The past half century has, IMHO, seen many significant advances toward peace in the region, including treaties of peace and mutual recognition between states formerly at war, Constitutional rules requiring representation and non-discrimination against minorities, and effective practical enforcement of these rules and the laws enacted by their governments. Surprisingly, many of the states with these policies and laws are the ones commonly perceived as beyond hope of peace: Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iran, and even Iraq (if Iraq can still be said to observer its former constitution and laws).

 

It’s unfortunate and unproductive, I think, that the Middle East situation is so widely depicted as an impossible mess, often by the very people bent on improving it. It is, I believe, a glass-half-empty-or-half-full matter of perception, except that in this case, the glass is much more than half full.

[Qfwfq]

There's a deeper root cause here, as far as I'm concerned. And blaming it on either the US, Israel or Islam, is just putting a new label on a much, much older problem.

http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-humanities/5377-wtf-14.html#post93146