Does God exist?

[freeztar]

:tongue:

[Pyrotex]

:shrug:

[InfiniteNow]

And from my first response to you regarding this assertion of yours I ask you to explain what the significance is of defining God as nature, and you have yet to reply.

 

It's always the same, "by studying nature, we can infer something about God."

 

What?

 

By studying matter we can infer that God is made of tiny particles.

By studying motion we can infer that God moves.

By studying rocks we can infer that God is hard.

By studying gases and liquids we can infer that God is fluid.

By studying evolution we can infer that God changes over time.

By studying energy we can infer that God is conserved and only changes form.

 

etc., etc, etc.

 

What does it mean scientifically to label these things about nature God. It has been asked over and over and over again.

 

You don't have an answer. Do you know why?

 

There isn't one.

I think you forgot one that might shed some much needed additional light.

 

By studying psychology and the social sciences we can infer absolutely everything about God.

 

 

:shrug:

[REASON]

I think you forgot one that might shed some much needed additional light.

 

By studying psychology and the social sciences we can infer absolutely everything about God.

 

 

:shrug:

 

Ahhh yes! That is brilliant, INow. B)

 

All it requires is that it is understood that conscious thought and contemplation be considered part of nature. It is readily apparent that it is a product of nature, but is difficult to objectively quantify and categorize. We can categorize the many different concepts of the existence of God.

 

But even as such, God would still be relegated to that of a thought.

[JDawg]

Hate to break the flow of the thread...but I'm gonna anyway...:weather_snowing:

 

We can argue all day if there is some form of deity that created the universe and really get nowhere. We can understand that as an inquisitive species, we are prone to making up answers when we don't have the real one. Enter: God. But does that really get us anywhere with theists? No.

 

The only way to really get anywhere with this question is to question the validity of the gods...in question...I really felt like Austin Powers right there. I hope you get that reference...

 

Anywho, we can clearly see the similarities between Jesus and the gods of antiquity. Crucifixion, death and resurrection, baptism, communion, etc., etc.. And from there we can draw the conclusion that since many of the major attributes of Jesus Christ (and the God of the Old Testament, even) are shared by numerous deities throughout the ages that came before him, that there is no reason in particular to believe that Jesus Christ is any more real than, say, Horus. Or Mithra. Or Perseus. Jesus is only the most recent.

[LJP07]

Ladies and gentlemen of the hypography readership, much like a mosquito in a nudist colony, I am not quite sure where to begin.

 

I thought that was Original until I viewed the religious debate between Danish D-Souza and Christopher Hitchens on Youtube.

 

Anyway, nobody has answered my question. Why did a creator create the chance for homosexuals to be made when he had the power to stop it, and furthermore, has the audacity to tell us to kill them in the Old Testament, when he could have saved us the bother and not created the chance in the first place? Logical Creator, I don't think so.

[LJP07]

We can argue all day if there is some form of deity that created the universe and really get nowhere.

 

Two of the biggest things Theists say in debates is that we don't know how life started or how the Big Bang occurred?

 

Would it be true to say that if these mysteries were completely solved (which in time I believe they will), that conventional theists will either accept there is no God, or come up with deeper questions that science has to discover?

[Overdog]

Would it be true to say that if these mysteries were completely solved (which in time I believe they will), that conventional theists will either accept there is no God, or come up with deeper questions that science has to discover?

 

Yes, it would be true to say that they will do one or the other.:weather_snowing:

 

But there are plenty of other rationalizations already available, philosophical in nature, which science, reason, and logic cannot penetrate.

[LJP07]

Precisely, and these were created when Science started answering questions as a low blow so to speak.

[C1ay]

Two of the biggest things Theists say in debates is that we don't know how life started or how the Big Bang occurred?

 

Would it be true to say that if these mysteries were completely solved (which in time I believe they will), that conventional theists will either accept there is no God, or come up with deeper questions that science has to discover?

 

And that's exactly the right answer, we don't know. That's what's so mind boggling about it. They realize that the correct answer to these questions is "we don't know" but they refuse to accept it and opt to invent an answer like "God did it". What they don't realize is I don't care if God did it, let's decide that when we know that's the real answer instead of pretending it is until we know the true answer, an answer we may never know.

 

For me that really is the battle, getting people to believe that it is more important to search for the real answers so that we may "know" them, what ever the answers are, than to simply give up and believe in some hand-me-down answers man simply made up.

[Overdog]

For me that really is the battle, getting people to believe that it is more important to search for the real answers so that we may "know" them, what ever the answers are, than to simply give up an believe in some hand-me-down answers man simply made up.

 

Yes, that really is the battle, unfortunately we are born ready, willing and able to absorb whatever hand-me-down answers our parents and society in general gives us. Once we are adults it is difficult to discard these beliefs. Even frightening to discard them in some cases.

 

Belief in life after death, Heaven and Hell, makes for one hell of a Carrot and Stick, (no pun intended).

 

Very tough to give that up...

[InfiniteNow]

I thought that was Original until I viewed the religious debate between Danish D-Souza and Christopher Hitchens on Youtube.

Good call. That's exactly where I heard it first. I hope I'm not in trouble for not sourcing it. :weather_snowing:

 

Despite the fact that I disagreed with the perspective for which he was arguing, I realized that D'Souza always started his segment at the podium with a joke or funny comment to get the audience on his side. It's a smart technique, so I figured I'd borrow it here to see if similar results could be achieved.

[JDawg]

Two of the biggest things Theists say in debates is that we don't know how life started or how the Big Bang occurred?

 

Would it be true to say that if these mysteries were completely solved (which in time I believe they will), that conventional theists will either accept there is no God, or come up with deeper questions that science has to discover?

 

There's no way to solve those mysteries. The tendency of theists is to push God back in the equation every time we discover something new. We used to think that the Earth was in the center of the solar system, and we thought we had perfect justification for believing so right in the Bible. Later, we believed we were simply the center of the universe. We found out later that we're not even anywhere near the center of our own galaxy. And of course, the biggest one, evolution. At first theists outright denied it, even going so far as to present "scientific studies" on how the banana was made to perfectly fit into our hands and mouths. Later, they changed this story, and largely began to accept it. Now only the fringe Evangelicals are having a hard time with the notion that we share a common ancestor with the ape, while the rest say "God simply put evolution in motion".

 

So you see that no matter how much science discovers, there will always be a church, or a temple, or a mosque there to say "Ah, but God is beyond that still."

 

As you can see, I'm an atheist, but to answer the other side of your question, if there is a God, I doubt science would be able to verify it.

[LJP07]

Yeah, agree with all of the above, it makes sense as like Hitchens says, I'd prefer to be called an Anti-Theist as I still believe religion is there for the wrong reasons and does wrong as well. That's beside the point.

 

Speaking of Hitchens, he always refers to this in his debates, of which I would recommend to all Atheists or even slightly religious peoples.

 

"It's not fair that we are subject to a celestial dictatorship, whereby if we believe we get the luxury of Heaven, and if we don't agree we reach the depths of hell, that's hardly fair, is it?"

 

Speaking of God, if he is the divine creator, you'd have to wonder about Satan and hell and what part this plays on Gods celestial architecture?

[JDawg]

Yeah, agree with all of the above, it makes sense as like Hitchens says, I'd prefer to be called an Anti-Theist as I still believe religion is there for the wrong reasons and does wrong as well. That's beside the point.

 

Speaking of Hitchens, he always refers to this in his debates, of which I would recommend to all Atheists or even slightly religious peoples.

 

"It's not fair that we are subject to a celestial dictatorship, whereby if we believe we get the luxury of Heaven, and if we don't agree we reach the depths of hell, that's hardly fair, is it?"

 

Speaking of God, if he is the divine creator, you'd have to wonder about Satan and hell and what part this plays on Gods celestial architecture?

 

The fact that one of God's exiles actually managed to become something of an anti-God speaks volumes about how powerful God isn't, don't you think? If God were truly as all-powerful as he claims to be, and loved us as much as he claims to, then why would he not have just wished Lucifer out of existence, and protect us from such a vile trickster?

 

It's laughable, this myth. If people really thought about it, they'd never believe it. And a lot of people don't! Most don't, if you ask me. As Hitchens' says, you get a different answer from everybody.

[Boerseun]

The belief in God says not so much about the origin of the universe, the origin of life, the meaning of it all, man's place in the universe or why there will always be misery in the world as it says about human psychology and the Fear of the Unknown.

 

And that's about it, I guess.

[Overdog]

The belief in God says not so much about the origin of the universe, the origin of life, the meaning of it all, man's place in the universe or why there will always be misery in the world as it says about human psychology and the Fear of the Unknown.

 

I agree. That is about it.