Reverse Racism

[BEAKER]

Okay.

 

Did you have a point?

 

Faithful Stone - You're a genius! You have so much mental power it could be dangerous. Some people just don't want to think that hard, like the people who wanted to stone Jesus after He told a parrable or two and they percieved it was about them.

 

You go brother!

 

By the way - at the risk of sounding selfish; - if I was Iglyboo and you were Farkle; who in the heck do you think you are to tell me I must give up even one of my apples?! - It's my apple! You may not like it, but just try to take it, I'll kick our ***.

 

Now if I, out of the generosity of my heart decide Id like to share, That's totally my perogotive; it's still my apple. I can do what I want with it.

 

Capitalism Rules!

[Kriminal99]

I, a caucasian, had some pretty bad race experiences (working with almost all african americans) myself at one of my previous jobs.

 

Reverse racism or just racism?

 

I agree with not referring to it as reverse racism, since minorities are not priveleged in some way that they should be able to act racist themselves while complaining about other people doing it. I think the term 'reverse racism" is typically used by racists since they believe there are enough signifigant differences or defficiencies that minorities should be entilted to priveleged access to racism complaints.

 

Focus on the problem not the symptoms

 

Anyways I bring it up because I think it is more important to focus on how racism is realized than punishing specific people who do it past a recognizable point. Racism is realized through straw man fallacy and lack of objectivity.

 

Lack of extra-professional connection

 

For instance in the enviornment I worked in, I was unable or handicapped in participating in some discussions. This was due to frequent references to race/culture specific topics such as "weaves" (instead of hair extensions), african american movies such as the color purple, and slang language that I was not familiar with (as opposed to just race specific products).

 

Straw man to racism

 

Imagine a typical office scenario where you might gain immunity from an "office gossip" by developing friendships with other employees and your boss. Since in this case you are unable to relate to them as well in a non-professional manner, you remain open to the fabricated criticisms of such a person. If this person's friend of the same race is late, it was because of the huge accident (which was actually on a different highway). If you are late (when the accident was actually on your highway and you were in it) it is because you lack respect for your job.

 

The way to solve this is not to try and make friends with everyone you work with. It may help but what you really need to do is learn to be objective and skeptical even with people you are not friends with or perhaps don't even like. If someone is telling you something negative about someone else, they probably have an ulterior motive. Sometimes their motive is obvious for example if you have to do twice as much work because someone else was lazy the fact that you had to do work is probably going to be the focus of your complaint to others. If you are lying gossip, then the focus of your complaints to others is going to be why a certain person is such a bad employee etc and you are going to hide your motives for communicating this.

 

An example of Tribal Morality to racism

 

One time I got into an altercation with another employee. This person had asked me to exchange money with them in an inappropriate fashion. To compensate I documented everything I did and when, but the moment she handed the last of her change to me I informed her she had shorted me. She had already let her customer go before counting what the customer gave and so she became anxious. She had been at the company much longer than me, and tried to intimidate me into taking responsibility for her mistake. I explained to her calmly why I thought it was not my fault and that I was going to have to talk to the supervisor about it if she insisted that it was not her fault.

 

She said fine attempting to appear unphased, and when the supervisor came she asked my coworker what was happening in a colloquial manner. My coworker lied about what happened (and contradicted herself once or twice doing it) and referred to me several times as "DUDE" sarcastically referring to my difference in race.

 

I told my side of the story and my coworker interrupted me and we began arguing about it. My manager left for a minute, and I tried to work out the details logically with my coworker who became angry and just started yelling. I told my manager she was lying and that she had just taken the money from me. My manager pulled us in the back where I presented my written record and my coworker shut up really quickly. She then threatened to punch me several times and kept referring to me as "Dude".

 

The result was that my manager did give me the money my coworker had taken, but chastized me for saying that she lied and took the money. She completely ignored the physical threats saying "We will get defensive if you make accusations of stealing or lying" I worked at the bank as much as they did, so the only possible we's could have been african americans or possibly people that had been there longer (Though if I was able to relate to them really well it wouldn't matter if I was fairly new) Although I was otherwise excelling at my job and even had been nominated for an accelerated development program, my manager made preperations to fire me. I was only able to dodge loosing my job by sharing what happened with someone who was not able to directly punish anyone, but who could prevent anyone from punishing me as well.

 

The only name for this type of thing is Tribal Morality. Here the manager ignored proof that her "Sista" had lied, refused to give money she owed, and made threats of physical violence. Then she criticized me for recognizing these behaviors. She had simply defined anything her "people" did as morally right and anything anyone opposing them did as morally wrong.

 

To provide an example of why Tribal Morality is so absurd, consider the following. Suppose a "Well respected" coworker at work shoots you in the break room. You come out of the break room bleeding and yell that this person has shot you. Your manager comes up and asks you "Are you accusing <Coworker's name>, a well respected employee of shooting someone? How dare you!!"

 

Single person straw man, or common racism

 

This is really the only kind of racism that is ever publicly recognized. Here a single person has some internal argument that is contradicted by reality and renders them unable to deal with certain situations objectively. For example, if a person believes all african americans are unintelligent, then if an intelligent african american is presented to them they will refuse to accept it instead pretending this african american is stupid anyways.

 

This is not really limited to racism, but rather can apply to any convaluted belief set that someoen may have. A person may believe that physically fit males are unintelligent. Or if they are physically fit and have a good sense of style then they are trying to make up for a lack of social skills. There are a million different little belief sets such as these that are often contradicted in reality resulting in the person who holds them refusing to acknowledge the deviation.

 

At this job I had someone come to evaluate me for an accelerated development program. The person was an african american female, and all my coworkers were african americans. She was visibly angered by me from the very beginning, she talked about me in the third person as I was right next to her. I introduced myself and she continued to talk about me in the third person, and then asked me about people she worked with that I knew nothing about and smirked when I told her such. I did my best to carry on a conversation with her but she responded to eveyrthing I said in a critical manner. Immediately after leaving she asked my coworker who else was there she could consider. I gather (though I do not know the details) that she basically gave my coworkers that had nominated me for consideration a lecture on black pride in the back room. She later observed me for a while obviously trying to make it look more legit. She ignored that i solved several problems with customers that were unattended that were outside of my typical job description when I was not busy. She attempted to correct things that I did several times but what she said did not even apply to what I was actually doing.

[Boerseun]

Asking questions such as "why is a black more likely to end up in prison than a white" or why do more whites (statistically) end up with P.hD's than blacks" are all valid questions, but like the man said, you can't give a good answer to a badly framed question.

 

Statistically, it's true. But the root causes are deeper than what could be asked in a single line.

 

If you look at popular media, the stereotypes are strengthened, 24 hours a day on television. Stereotypes are powerful tools, and a force shaping society in the long run. And whatever happens today, has a big impact generations down the line. Look at role models, for instance. Because more whites today (statistically) have higher tertiary education than blacks, more white kids have positive and productive role models to follow than black kids. So, a generation down the line, the picture might pretty well still be the same. A black kid might look at his uncle Charlie who's doin' fine as a gangsta pushing drugs, and might decide to follow that route instead of going to college, whilst the white kid might look at his uncle Joe who's a successful accountant. So, a generation down the line, the profiles might be the same. And uncle Charlie and uncle Joe made the same decisions when they were kids, following their role models. And so on and so forth, all the way back to the days when there wasn't any equality to speak of. Obviously, this isn't the reason in all cases, but it is a powerful element in shaping society. Also, when a bigger slice of a given population is sitting in jail, there's less of a stigma attached to having served time in the past under that specific population than there is under a population where a very small section have been behind bars. With the nett effect of making jail less of a deterrent, making it much easier for the individual to make the mental leap towards a life of crime.

 

There are examples of black people excelling in any given walk of live, and there are examples of white people screwing up badly, but on average, when the statistics are considered, making the deduction that blacks are inherently bad people (look at arrest figures, prison population, etc.), is quite an easy (and reasonable) leap to make. But then you have to look at how many blacks are convicted by black judges and jurys. A jury might be subconsciously prejudiced and biased against the accused if he's a black man fitting the stereotypes. So, making any deductions based on criminality and prison populations are dangerous affairs unless the whole judicial system is analyzed at the same time.

 

But coming back to the original post, I find racism (the popular idea of white against black) and 'reverse' racism, that of black against white, equally distasteful. I find Affirmative Action to be demeaning of a person's abilities, and a mechanism perpetuating the culture of entitlement that previously oppressed people seem to have.

 

I'm of German descent. I feel very sympathetic towards the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, but I feel no guilt at all. It was my distant cousins who did it, not me. I feel very sympathetic towards the blacks for having suffered under white oppression and Apartheid all these years, but I feel no guilt at all - it wasn't me. I am sick and tired of the sins of the Great-Great-Great-Grandfathers being visited on their Great-Great-Great-Grandchildren. I believe the whole idea behind reparations and such is simply a tool sold by greedy lawyers to the distant offspring of those who suffered, in order to make money. Hell, man. Get over it. The world is not against you because you're black, if you're black and poor, you've simply made some bad decisions in your life. And if you spit in any white man's face because he's white, then there's no, absolutely no difference between you and the Klu Klux Klan, save maybe for a white sheet with a few holes in it and a burning cross. You've lost any moral high ground you might have had, and you're a full-blown racist.

[Buffy]

This thread got hijacked by a discussion on the belief that facts about the Holocaust are erroneous. Those interested will find that discussion 10518, not that its worth much attention...

 

And now back to our previously scheduled discussion,

Buffy

[HappytheStripper]

This thread got hijacked by a discussion on the belief that facts about the Holocaust are erroneous. Those interested will find that discussion 10518, not that its worth much attention...

 

And now back to our previously scheduled discussion,

Buffy

 

 

Thanks for posting this Buffy .. I just realised I posted in the wrong place .. now Im lost .. :)

 

My Question:

 

This thread kind of reminds me of the pot that called the kettle black ..

 

I have a question .. why do we call it race.. ??

 

Ashley

[Buffy]

why do we call it race.. ??

According to Wiki:

The term race tries to distinguish one population or group of people. The most widely used human racial categories are based on visible traits (especially skin color, facial features and hair texture), genes, and self-identification.

From a genetic standpoint, its very close to "breed" in animals. We're all the same species, and we can "interbreed". Genetically, there are no interesting differences between the races except for predisposition to certain traits which can be selected out the same way we improve crops.

 

The more interesting aspect are those last two words above: "self-identification". We associate ourselves by family and social groups which happen to be correllated with similar traits. But this is highly misleading. I have more friends of different races but similar interests than I do within my "race". But of course I live in California! Its the law here!

 

But skin color, religious affiliation (note its familial, and therefore "genetic" in the loosest sense of the word), etc. all create opportunities to create "us vs. them" conflicts which are *useful* in establishing and maintaining power by the "leaders" of the groups. This conflict is the source of "racism"...

 

Its a starting point: there's lots more to discuss here without descending in to discussing the righteousness of these specific instances of conflict....

 

He ain't heavy, :phones:

Buffy

[Fatstep]

According to Wiki:

The term race tries to distinguish one population or group of people. The most widely used human racial categories are based on visible traits (especially skin color, facial features and hair texture), genes, and self-identification.

 

So according to this, a person that is what we would consider white is actually black if they claim to be? They self-identify themselves as a black individual, hmm.

[Buffy]

So according to this, a person that is what we would consider white is actually black if they claim to be? They self-identify themselves as a black individual, hmm.

Yes, thus the term "reverse Oreo"...amazingly related to this thread....

 

Whether they're accepted in the group is another matter altogether: it can be done, but not with seething cynicism! :phones: A large number if not the majority of the Freedom Riders in 1964 were white of course. George Hauser a white guy, was a co-founder of CORE...

 

Like Rod McEuen once said, "no one is born a bastard, you have to work at it."

 

Gray,

Buffy

[jungjedi]

.

 

Whether they're accepted in the group is another matter altogether: it can be done, but not with seething cynicism! :) A large number if not the majority of the Freedom Riders in 1964 were white of course. George Hauser a white guy, was a co-founder of CORE...

 

and just look at all the things white people have invented.cars,the airplane,rockets,the cellphone....see their not all bad.

HURRAY for white people!

[IMAMONKEY!]

Racism is all too present in our world on a large scale.

 

The problem arises from the existence of race itself. People have to understand that whether you're black, white, brown, tan, orange, or blue it doesnt change the POTENTIAL that each human being has. The REAL problems in this world are caused by those who squander wealth and those who can't seem to keep hold of it.

 

Most people that live on welfare aren't too keen on getting jobs because they make a nice comfortable living on it. Welfare cheats and people who live off of charity because they use the excuse "I can't get a job" are a HUGE drain on our economy.

 

Everyone has the ability to work. Everyone has a talent of some kind. Everyone is capable of getting a job REGARDLESS of how much money you have, what color you are, how big your middle finger is (had to take a stab at that :rant:), or what language you speak.

 

I see those NAA* instituations as prejudiced themselves. They are NOT solving the problem they are merely widening the gap by supplying money to people who will not, and do not want to work becuase THEY DONT HAVE TO.:)

[TheFaithfulStone]

Everyone is capable of getting a job REGARDLESS of how much money you have, what color you are, how big your middle finger is (had to take a stab at that ), or what language you speak.

 

True enough, but I doubt this means what you think it does. How are you going to feed your kids making $120/week?

 

I see those NAA* instituations as prejudiced themselves. They are NOT solving the problem they are merely widening the gap by supplying money to people who will not, and do not want to work becuase THEY DONT HAVE TO

 

Methinks you do not understand what the NAACP does.

 

TFS

[Leila Night]

The more interesting aspect are those last two words above: "self-identification". We associate ourselves by family and social groups which happen to be correllated with similar traits. But this is highly misleading. I have more friends of different races but similar interests than I do within my "race". But of course I live in California! Its the law here!

But skin color, religious affiliation (note its familial, and therefore "genetic" in the loosest sense of the word), etc. all create opportunities to create "us vs. them" conflicts which are *useful* in establishing and maintaining power by the "leaders" of the groups. This conflict is the source of "racism"...

Its a starting point: there's lots more to discuss here without descending in to discussing the righteousness of these specific instances of conflict....

Beautiful.

 

people who will not, and do not want to work becuase THEY DONT HAVE TO.

Who are these people who don't have to work? The Waltons? The Johnsons? The British Royal family?

[IMAMONKEY!]

Who are these people who don't have to work? The Waltons? The Johnsons? The British Royal family?

 

Welfare cheats. Those that live off of others' charity. It does happen whether you choose to believe it or not.

[InfiniteNow]

I take it you've never been out of work for more than a few months and needed to pay the bills, feed mouths, and obtain medicine. It's pretty helpful when someone falls into difficult circumstances, and even more importantly, has nothing whatsoever to do with race or racism.

[TheFaithfulStone]

Welfare cheats. Those that live off of others' charity. It does happen whether you choose to believe it or not.

 

Those people are called the United States Congress.

 

Seriously, I'm sure there is welfare fraud. ODB used to get his check every month. Whatever.

 

However, I'd wager that MOST reciepients of welfare are NOT defrauding the system, and if you're spitting back that Regeanomics crap about people who live their whole lives on welfare, they mostly don't exist.

 

There is almost zero assistance for adults without children. (I think New Jersey and Delaware are the only two states that have such a thing.) The other "welfare" program is called TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) and it lasts for a lifetime maximum of five years.

 

Now, I've got my own set of problems with TANF (like that it's an extremely subtle and effective way of wringing the last little bit of economic productivity from people before you toss them on the trash, or that it's at least partially designed to make sure that once you're on welfare you never get off of it. See here.) But it's probably better in some ways than the old AFDC welfare program.

 

While I am sure there is indeed fraud in the system, I wonder just how much it is. This article estimates the rate of fraud in Canada to be 3%. Most of which is (anecdotally, either unreported income or co-residency. That is, you don't report the income you got from collecting cans, or that you live with your husband, even though you are both collecting enough money to live by yourselves.

 

Here is another good one for Canada. PDF warning.

 

I'm having trouble finding similary detailed reports for the US, but I suspect the situation is not radically different.

 

Read the first ten pages.

 

TFS