Insistence on the Clarification of History on Holocaust, etc.

[rocket art]

Now if I, out of the generosity of my heart decide Id like to share, That's totally my perogotive; it's still my apple. I can do what I want with it.

 

Capitalism Rules!

 

It would have been cute if it were as simple as an apple, but no. During the era of colonialism countries were virtually robbed of its resources and it doesn't seem appropriate that the culprits just claim most of the world's wealth to be theirs, while they decide out of the "generosity of their hearts" whether to assist or not to assist starving children borne from the complexity of such actions, or whether the greed oriented system will continue to suck those kids.

 

I feel very sympathetic towards the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, but I feel no guilt at all. It was my distant cousins who did it, not me.

 

Those are suspected to be exagerated figures, been said it's a cunning political agenda by zionists to discredit all Germans. To the consternation of Bush Corp., the Iranians and Jews actually met in Tehran and discussed those supiciously exaggerated figures by the zionists regarding the Holocaust.

[Buffy]

Those are suspected to be exagerated figures, been said it's a cunning political agenda by zionists to discredit all Germans. To the consternation of Bush Corp., the Iranians and Jews actually met in Tehran and discussed those supiciously exaggerated figures by the zionists regarding the Holocaust.

Unfortunately for the Holocaust Deniers, the Nazi's were incredibly meticulous in their accounting. The records are all there, but different sources vary, and as a result, such Deniers love to "teach the controversy." This is off topic, so if you want to open a thread on "The Holocaust did not happen" you're welcome to, but you might wish you hadn't. Considering *why* people would believe this in spite of the evidence *is* relevant though, and you might wish to explain here why you hold these beliefs:

 

Those who support Holocaust Denial in the name of supporting the theory that "Zionism is Racism" have an *agenda*: Kick the Jews out of Palestine because it belongs to the Arabs. Some even try to say "the Arabs were there first" which would be amusing for its obvious falsity if it weren't backed up by such deadly insistence on its righteousness.

 

In the Middle East conflict, there is massive racism on both ends of the spectrum, and of course it is sad that the majority in the middle get forced into taking sides simply for the sake of survival. Racism is extremism, and it is *not* right to paint everyone in a group with this broadbrush. Just because one supports a group that contains members--or even leaders--who are racist, does not make the individual racist. It is sometimes necessary to belong to such groups: at the very least, it is "easy and comfortable" which leads to the "reverse discrimination" that Krim describes. He's right when he describes it as "Tribal" because the tribe is the source of survival for all social species, and this is built in.

 

On the other hand, our intellect tells us that this can lead to sub-optimal solutions. There's an article in this morning's SF Chronicle about "Getting rid of the jerk at work" which really has everything to do with getting rid of extremism in the workplace. Extremism/Racism/Jerkiness are all manifestations of anti-social behavior that ultimately harm groups, but it takes supreme effort to start the process of overthrowing the natural reaction to protect any member of "the group" no matter how despicable their actions are. This is evidence of evolution of the social organism, and it begins by eschewing "social guilt" like that described by Boerseun. These attitudes can be slandered as racism, but there is a fine but profound distinction to be made between those like Boerseun who refuse the social guilt but work actively to eliminate barriers and support equality, and those who work hard--feigning the same goal of eliminating social guilt--to perpetuate divisions based on literally changing history.

 

Truth: ugly and complicated,

Buffy

[rocket art]

First let me clarify my viewpoint. I differentiate zionism from Jews and even Israelis (there are Israeli Hebrews and Arabs). Even these people (especially Jews) are victims of the materialistic, atheistic, racist zionism.

 

I found the link that you posted claiming to hold records as suspiciously incomplete, obviously biased, and extremely manipulative. Be meticulous, what if the records these politickers were claiming may be list of those hoarded to concentration camps. The figures were there, but supposedly most of them migrated to Russia, US, Palestine. There were indeed deaths, but supposedly account to about 30,000 and most of these were supposedly accounted in zionist-run concentration camps because the authorities there corruptedly embezzled the funds for food and supplies. Adolf Eichmann was a zionist symphatizer and even made deals with zionists. Nazis and Zionists were in collabortion against Jews. The figures were exaggerated to justify the creation of materialist Israel (far from religious) so that zionists will have an escape hideout for their criminal acts (they supposedly masterminded WW1, created Marxist communism, control american puppet media), and the Jews and Israelis are just used as human shields in case the host countries retaliate against zionist parasitic crimes.

 

Those who support Holocaust Denial in the name of supporting the theory that "Zionism is Racism" have an *agenda*: Kick the Jews out of Palestine because it belongs to the Arabs.

 

You mean you don't even know the most basic fact that Zionism is a racist ideology? :shrug: Far from religious, zionism is an atheistic, materialistic, racist ideology founded by Herzl and based on Darwinism that sees the rest of Humanity other than them as subhumans (they control american puppet media, thats why you will notice the puppetry that treats american viewers as inferior that continually insult american intellect, american culture disastrously corrupted, and propagated lies such as non existent Iraqi WMD while at the same time refusing to comply with UN mandate against cluster bombs, and other hypocrisy).

 

Actually, Jews and Arabs prior to the zionist movement were very much at peace with each other in many Arab countries, until the zionists came and committed very horrible criminal acts against palestinians (most of you don't know because they control puppet media, many don't even know what really happened to USS Liberty) considerably because zionist ideology see them as subhumans (including american viewers). Even Jews nowadays were themselves the ones exposing the criminal acts of zionists. Jews are getting aware they themselves were victims of racist zionism.

 

Extremism/Racism/Jerkiness are all manifestations of anti-social behavior that ultimately harm groups

 

With zionism, it's more like sociopathic and it's obvious that zionist manipulation in the middle east and the world, the puppetry of media and corruption of american govt, crimes against fellow humans, including against Israelis and Jews with extremist zionist racism, will ultimately harm Humanity.

[Buffy]

I found the link that you posted claiming to hold records as suspiciously incomplete, obviously biased, and extremely manipulative. Be meticulous, what if the records these politickers were claiming may be list of those hoarded to concentration camps. The figures were there, but supposedly most of them migrated to Russia, US, Palestine. There were indeed deaths, but supposedly account to about 30,000 and most of these were supposedly accounted in zionist-run concentration camps because the authorities there corruptedly embezzled the funds for food and supplies....

That's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying. You have some company, I know that, but if you want to argue that the holocaust did not happen, do it elsewhere rather than hijacking this thread with your agenda.

 

The Shah was a Saint,

Buffy

[rocket art]

That's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying. You have some company, I know that, but if you want to argue that the holocaust did not happen, do it elsewhere rather than hijacking this thread with your agenda.

 

Ok. I didn't argue :) , atrocities indeed occured against Jews, and that tens of thousands did lost their lives (by corrupt zionist-run concentration camps with nazi-zionist collaboration, which obviously was used as propaganda for their advantage at the expense of their victims).

 

Neither did I hijack this thread, I posted in response to someone's dilemma in which I deem not fair to base on warped and manipulated historical accounts, that opened up other issues in which I'm compelled to react and clarify. Hopefully, there would be no more insistence in favor of the zionist agenda of lies.

[Fatstep]

and that tens of thousands did lost their lives

 

Actually the number is between 3 and 5 million jews.

[rocket art]

Actually the number is between 3 and 5 million jews.

 

Meticulous accounting, thanks to IBM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfevjFskGJA may indeed record figures of detained prisoners on concentration camps that run by millions. Actual deaths, considering other issues being exposed nowadays, will remain open issues that must be addressed.

 

However, whether the figures of fatalities may run in tens of thousands, or whether in millions, it cannot be denied that fascist Zionism must also be held accountable to these criminalities.

[Leila Night]

However, whether the figures of fatalities may run in tens of thousands, or whether in millions, it cannot be denied that fascist Zionism must also be held accountable to these criminalities.

 

What do you mean?

[rocket art]

What do you mean?

 

It means justice must be served to all victims, including jews. Why is this difficult to understand? Unless irrational and biased agendas bordering on fanaticism to warped belief system are insistently pushed.

 

Someone deducted my rep and accused me of Holocaust denial (did not!) and hateful (no, it's even out of concern for true justice) generalizations, and even told me to wake up :hihi: . Duh, you speak the awful truth long hidden and supressed and fanaticism immediately protects the stink and guilt of the lies. It is indeed to difficult to wake fanatics up because ridiculously, they pretend to sleep.

 

"Beware of extremism and fundamentalism, it makes any thing or any one as evil except evil's very root in which these are guilty of."

[Leila Night]

the awful truth long hidden and supressed and fanaticism immediately protects the stink and guilt of the lies

What awful truth? Who's guilt? And what do Zionists need to be held accountable for? Be specific.

[Lancaster]

It means justice must be served to all victims, including jews. Why is this difficult to understand? Unless irrational and biased agendas bordering on fanaticism to warped belief system are insistently pushed.

 

Someone deducted my rep and accused me of Holocaust denial (did not!) and hateful (no, it's even out of concern for true justice) generalizations, and even told me to wake up ;) . Duh, you speak the awful truth long hidden and supressed and fanaticism immediately protects the stink and guilt of the lies. It is indeed to difficult to wake fanatics up because ridiculously, they pretend to sleep.

 

"Beware of extremism and fundamentalism, it makes any thing or any one as evil except evil's very root in which these are guilty of."

 

All races, all peoples, without exception have committed some form of atrocity. Why focus on Jews or whoever you're focusing on? You're acting a little fanatical. :D

[BEAKER]

It would have been cute if it were as simple as an apple, but no. During the era of colonialism countries were virtually robbed of its resources and it doesn't seem appropriate that the culprits just claim most of the world's wealth to be theirs, while they decide out of the "generosity of their hearts" whether to assist or not to assist starving children borne from the complexity of such actions, or whether the greed oriented system will continue to suck those kids.

 

Who will you put in charge of distributing the totality of the worlds wealth with absolute equality? Will it be you?:evil:

[Lancaster]

Who will you put in charge of distributing the totality of the worlds wealth with absolute equality? Will it be you?:evil:

 

Why does any one person have to "distribute the totality of the world's wealth?" Who claimed it had to be that way? Oh, way to throw in a straw man, too.

[rocket art]

Who will you put in charge of distributing the totality of the worlds wealth with absolute equality? Will it be you?

 

Silly argument. Oh, definitely it will not be you.

 

All races, all peoples, without exception have committed some form of atrocity. Why focus on Jews or whoever you're focusing on? You're acting a little fanatical.

I was revealing the topic as an example whose grave consequences cannot be denied, until it became obviously clear that biased agenda ensure that such topic be kept hushed as if it's some kind of blasphemous issue, thereby obviously exposing the fanatical and denial attempts that mirror back to those detracting, and to warped ideologies that are stubbornly focused by fanaticism. This merely reveals the fanaticism, and surely it would not take a fanatic to discover, observe, reveal such.

 

What awful truth? Who's guilt? And what do Zionists need to be held accountable for? Be specific

.

The dilemma of tackling such complex issue by so simple questions would only result to more confusion. However I prefer that such complexity may be perceived in a more basic, fundamental level. The dilemma will be traced at each individual level. The opposing polarities in the concept of good and bad, known and unknown, seen and unseen is a struggle from within each individual.

 

However, from such basic moral struggle, the individual, borne from outside influences imposed on him/her (religious beliefs, ideologies, social pressures, etc.), attempts to define his/her polarity by retreating to the comfort zone within him on the 'good', the known, seen.. and projecting the 'bad', unknown, unseen, outside of him/her to the outside or to the other fellow. As clearly discerned throughout human history, such projection had caused much dilemma and chaos to the world.

 

Fanaticism, whether in Zionism, racism, or any ideology or belief systems occur because the fanaticism refuses, out of fear or unawareness, that the dilemma of the 'bad', unknown, unseen that one projects to another fellow or another race may not necessarily root out from outside, but on the refusal to identify that the dilemma actually occurs from 'within' him/her, and such can only be resolved 'within'.

[Lancaster]

Silly argument. Oh, definitely it will not be you.

 

 

I was revealing the topic as an example whose grave consequences cannot be denied, until it became obviously clear that biased agenda ensure that such topic be kept hushed as if it's some kind of blasphemous issue, thereby obviously exposing the fanatical and denial attempts that mirror back to those detracting, and to warped ideologies that are stubbornly focused by fanaticism. This merely reveals the fanaticism, and surely it would not take a fanatic to discover, observe, reveal such.

 

.

The dilemma of tackling such complex issue by so simple questions would only result to more confusion. However I prefer that such complexity may be perceived in a more basic, fundamental level. The dilemma will be traced at each individual level. The opposing polarities in the concept of good and bad, known and unknown, seen and unseen is a struggle from within each individual.

 

However, from such basic moral struggle, the individual, borne from outside influences imposed on him/her (religious beliefs, ideologies, social pressures, etc.), attempts to define his/her polarity by retreating to the comfort zone within him on the 'good', the known, seen.. and projecting the 'bad', unknown, unseen, outside of him/her to the outside or to the other fellow. As clearly discerned throughout human history, such projection had caused much dilemma and chaos to the world.

 

Fanaticism, whether in Zionism, racism, or any ideology or belief systems occur because the fanaticism refuses, out of fear or unawareness, that the dilemma of the 'bad', unknown, unseen that one projects to another fellow or another race may not necessarily root out from outside, but on the refusal to identify that the dilemma actually occurs from 'within' him/her, and such can only be resolved 'within'.

 

 

Could this dilemma be at all like the one faced with you actually addressing the source of your anger towards Zionism? At least define what you're so upset about and eliminate a little bit of the vagueness that I'm getting from what you're saying. If you cannot actually address this topic, at least give me a link, don't just cop out completely.

[HappytheStripper]

??

[TheBigDog]

In response to the title of this thread I ask, "How are they responsible?" Are they responsible for the number being so high or so low?

 

Bill