Expansion of Light Waves verses Expansion of Space

[Mike C]

Expansion of Lightwaves verses the Expansion of Space

 

Since I am supporting the former, I decided to try and establish a 'distance' relation to the EoLWs. Since the SSU is based on a flat Euclidean space, that is what I will use.

My first attempt to do this is by using the HDFN as a measure for the EoLWs.

The 'data' on this field is that the most distant objects were determined to have redshifts (RS) of 6+.

So I decided to use M87 in the Virgo Cluster as a model for establishing a distance if placed at the distance of the tiny specks that would have RSs of about 6.

 

M87 is measured to be at a distance of 16.7 megaparsecs or 54^6 light years.

Its angular diameter is 9.7 arc minutes (Nearby Galaxies Catalog by Brent Tully).

 

A photo of the HDFN is in the Sky and Telescope Magazine, May 1996, page 49. The photo is equivalent to 1-1/2 arc minutes wide. So using this width in relation to the small specks, I determined that they were about one arc 'secomd' wide.

So with this data, I determined that if M87 was placed at a distance of 'one arc second', it would be at a distance of 9.7' (582") x 54^6 lys, = 31^9 lys.

Then if we give it a RS of 6, we could establish a RS distance relation by dividing 31 by 6 that establishes a distance relation for a single RS of 5.16 lys for the lightwaves.

To reduce the RS to a single LY and use yellow light that has a wavelength of

5.56^-7 meters, we can divide the wavelength by 5.16^9 lys that gives us a RS of

1^-16 meters per ly.

 

Now to evaluate the RSs of the galaxies in the Virgo Cluster for an evaluation.

Rather than using the M87 data as the distance candle for this RS, I and another member of our Astronomy Club used the recessional velocities (RV) of a large number of the galaxies and I used a compromise RV of 1060 kms/s/mpc. M87s

RV is 1200 kms/s/mpc. This discrepancy includes the local RV of 140 kms for M87.

1060 kms/s divided by 2.99^8 meters/s = 3.53^-3 RS actual. This is the RS at the distance of the Virgo Cluster. This is a partial RS. So we invert to get a ratio for a RS of one. That is 1/3.53^-3 = 283 portions. We multiply this by the Virgo distance of 54^6 lys and we get 15^9 lys for a RS of one or a RS of 3.7^-17 meters per ly.

 

Dividing the RS above for the LWs by the local Virgo RS, we get 1^-16 divided by 3.7^-17 = a ratio of 2.7 to one.

 

The LWs are expanding at a greater pace than the space expansion! Wow!

 

How do we explain this?

Well, the Malmquist Bias may be one solution since it deals with the luminosity of objects as distance candles and Arps RS Anomaly shows that light energies by the radiating objects have different RSs.

So, we can conclude then, that the distant galaxies in the HDFN are 'high energy radiating objects' that have higher than average RSs for their distances as compared to the local Virgo Cluster composed of mostly ordinary galaxies.

 

So this comparison supports a SSU and the EoLWs as the Cosmological RS, IMO.

 

NS

[Jay-qu]

The meter is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second.

 

If light waves are shrinking then so is our space! :hihi: (well how we defined it!)

[Tormod]

I would perhaps expect more data than one single star...especially when the interpretation comes from seeing a photo in a magazine.

 

What predictions does your theory make? How would you test them?

[sanctus]

I never heard expansion of light waves excludes expansion od space. They are complementary (almost description of the same thing) : you can either say lightwaves expand (a better terminology would be their wavelengths increases) ergo space exands or space expands hence lightwaves do so too...

[Zythryn]

Before we get to measurements of a variety of light from stars, lets lay out the hypothesis and test it logically.

 

If the hypothesis is 'the wavelength of lightwaves increases as time passes' Could we not test this by setting up a series of mirrors. Measuring the length of the lightwave at the start of the 'mirror maze' then measure again at the end of a suitably long travel distance?

 

Would our measuring devices be accurate enough? If not, how accurate would they need to be?

 

We could use the mirrors on the moon to get a good long distance for the test?

[Mike C]

I never heard expansion of light waves excludes expansion od space. They are complementary (almost description of the same thing) : you can either say lightwaves expand (a better terminology would be their wavelengths increases) ergo space exands or space expands hence lightwaves do so too...

 

Your statement above does not provide the CAUSE of the redshift.

 

I give reasons for the cause.

 

I have not yet read of any reason for the 'expansion of space' since it is NOT an explosion.

Can you answer this question?

 

NS

[Mike C]

Zythryn

 

The Moon is too close to use your idea.

 

The Virgo Clusters distance ratio in comparison the the Moons distance is

1.3^15. So I do not think that would provide any accuracy or meaningful figures.

 

NS

[Tormod]

Zythryn

 

The Moon is too close to use your idea.

 

The Virgo Clusters distance ratio in comparison the the Moons distance is

1.3^15. So I do not think that would provide any accuracy or meaningful figures.

 

NS

 

If we can bounce a signal to and from the Moon over a long period of time, would that not yield the same effect? If not, why?

[Zythryn]

The moon was simply an example. As Tormod asked, why wouldn't repeated bounces give us some measurable effect?

 

Alternatively, why are some sources blue shifted? If your hypothesis is correct, any object at the same distance would have the same "expansion", would it not?

 

What predictions would the expansion hypothesis make that we can observe?

[sanctus]

Your statement above does not provide the CAUSE of the redshift.

 

Well... yes it does, in the first way of looking at it I say it is due to expansion. Ok, now you are right I didn't give a cause of the expansion

 

I have not yet read of any reason for the 'expansion of space' since it is NOT an explosion.

Can you answer this question?

 

NS

 

What about a positive cosmological constant? It might not been proven, but it can be reason.

[Mike C]

If we can bounce a signal to and from the Moon over a long period of time, would that not yield the same effect? If not, why?

 

If you are referring to the same signal, than that would be a difficult feat because the Moon is a moving target.

Another problem with that idea is that the signal spreads out 'sideways' to reflect only a small portion of the original signal if I recall correctly.

 

NS

[Mike C]

The moon was simply an example. As Tormod asked, why wouldn't repeated bounces give us some measurable effect?

 

Alternatively, why are some sources blue shifted? If your hypothesis is correct, any object at the same distance would have the same "expansion", would it not?

 

What predictions would the expansion hypothesis make that we can observe?

 

Read the reply to Tormod regarding your first question.

 

The blue shifted galaxies are due to local velocities and do not apply to the Cosmological RS.

 

M86 in Virgo is an example of a high local velocity. I explored this example since its blueshift at that distance was questionable.

The result is that I concluded that M86 and M84 are a binary revolving around M87. So the M86 approach velocity in the bimary and the binaries approach to us around M87 has given M86 a high approach velocity to us when the two components are added together.

 

Forget Einsteins formulas and think Euclidean. And consider the Cosmological RS to be one for every 5 billion light years.

As I said in my article above, one has to consider that those very deep objects in the HDFN may be high energy galaxies with greater RS's than the nearby galaxies except when they appear to be quasars. Than one has to consider the temperatures of the radiating objects.

 

NS

[Mike C]

Well... yes it does, in the first way of looking at it I say it is due to expansion. Ok, now you are right I didn't give a cause of the expansion

 

What about a positive cosmological constant? It might not been proven, but it can be reason.

 

Ha ha.

A positive cosmological constant would assist the gravitational effect and cause our universe to collapse as Einstein presumed.

So this would eliminate the 'expansion of space' as currently portrayed.

 

NS

[Tormod]

If you are referring to the same signal, than that would be a difficult feat because the Moon is a moving target.

 

You're dodging the question. This is not a question of ability, it's a question of what would happen to the signal. According to you, a signal decays over time because light waves expand.

 

So theoretically, I should be able to set up an experiment in my basement with a light source and a few mirrors. After a certain amount of time, my signal would (according to your theory) weaken because the light *expands*.

 

Explain how I would set up such an experiment, and predict what I would observe.

 

Another problem with that idea is that the signal spreads out 'sideways' to reflect only a small portion of the original signal if I recall correctly.

 

So the light we see from M87 is not a good source because it has spread out sideways?

[Tormod]

As I said in my article above, one has to consider that those very deep objects in the HDFN may be high energy galaxies with greater RS's than the nearby galaxies except when they appear to be quasars.

 

What is a "deep object"?

 

Than one has to consider the temperatures of the radiating objects.

 

Why?

[sanctus]

ha ha

 

Before laughing:

Einstein equation for an universe with cosmological constant:

 

[math]G_{\mu\nu}=8\pi G T_{\mu\nu}+\Lambda g_{\mu\nu}[/math]

 

with T the EM-tensor and g the friedmann-Lemaitre metric (in physical time):

[math]g_{\mu\nu}=(1,-a^2,-a^2,-a^2)[/math]

 

With a bit of math you obtain:

[math]\frac{\partial^2_t a}{a}=-\frac{4\pi G}{3}\left(\rho+3p\right)[/math]

 

Now, for ordinary matter you [math]\rho[/math] and p positive and hence [math]\partial^2_t a[/math]<0, so as you say: the effect od ordinary matter is to produce a decelartion of the expansion of the universe.

Now, if you look at the EInstein equation you see that the effect of the cosmological constant can be seen as the one of a fluid with EM-tensor:

[math]T_{\mu\nu}=\frac{\Lambda}{8\pi G}\delta^\mu_\nu\equiv \rho_{vac}\delta^\mu_\nu[/math]

Hence, it corresponds to a fluid with:

[math]\rho=\rho_{vac}\quad p=-\rho_{vac}[/math]

This implies on the righthand side of the equation for the acceleration:

[math]\rho+3p=-2\rho_{vac}[/math]<0

therefore

[math]\partial^2_t a[/math]>0

So the effect of a positive vacuum energy density(=positive cosmological constant) is to accelerate the expansion of the universe and not to "decelarate" it as you said.

 

So laughed to early?

[Mike C]

#14

You're dodging the question. This is not a question of ability, it's a question of what would happen to the signal. According to you, a signal decays over time because light waves expand.

 

So theoretically, I should be able to set up an experiment in my basement with a light source and a few mirrors. After a certain amount of time, my signal would (according to your theory) weaken because the light *expands*.

 

Explain how I would set up such an experiment, and predict what I would observe

 

You would see no change because the signal does not weaken with time but only after a distance travelled fron the source.

Besides, those distances in your basement cannot represent a spatial dimension of 5 billion light years for a redshift of one.

 

So the light we see from M87 is not a good source because it has spread out sideways?

 

Photons are 'single dimensional energys, so they do not spread sideways that much.

The problem with those light lasers is that they cannot be kept in alignment within the light tube projector to remain in perfect alighnment because of scattering within the short tube projector IMO.

 

#15

What is a "deep object"?

 

Why

 

Deep objects are the brightest galaxies in those deep spaces with the most Lyman Alpha radiations that are the most energetic hydogen atom radiations.

 

Why? Are you familiar with the Halton Arp Redshift Anomalies? Quasars have higher RSs because they are radiating higher energy radiations that expand more per unit distance than the lower level radiations of light.

 

NS