Souls, "Energy", and Consciousness

[Boerseun]

If you experience deja vu quite often, I suggest you might need to see a neurologist.

 

It seems very likely that deja vu is nothing more than the brain registering input out of synch - so that your dad gives you the 20$ bill, and you only realising it afterwards, like "I've been here before!"

 

It's a very small cognitive synchronisation problem, but it might be indicative of some bigger neurological issue, especially if it happens quite often.

[clapstyx]

Here's my two bobs worth. Lets call it a theory at this stage because I cant prove the truth either way to a point of absolute certainty.

 

I believe you can "divine" the truth and divine into yourself a greater consciousness of your own soul by defining and conceptualising what you consider to be the achievements to would do in what you consider to be the perfect life..where there is no boundary of practical impossibility. The things you would ideally achieve if that were within your level of personal power. Obviously there is some truth in the fact that by becoming conscious of what those things might be you can become conscious more frequently of opportunities to move closer to those absolute ultimates...by seeking obviously to create possibilities and then behaving in harmony with your objectives and goals..albeit the fact that for some people they may be rather extreme. Thats the living dimension, under the theory. On the other side the soul in migration from the outer living boundary of the universe (some conceptualise it as heaven) seeks to merge with a living body in tune with the same conceptualised ultimates and ultimately the two incrementally collide in what for some people feels like incremental reincarnation or incremental realisation. I suppose it could be described as the pouring of one glass half full into another..and then later back again. Obviously to understand that process, or at least to believe in it, you need to admit that the universe is possibly structured along the lines of a single celled living organism where the outer living boundary would be as the membrane and the Earth its simbiotic core..with the "presence" being able to travel between one place and dimension and the other in "soul format" between living expressions of its lower self..becoming its higher self..taking part in one experience..then travelling from then on two and from in incrementally higher consciousness levels.

 

Like I say I cant prove it to you but it is most definately my experience of the process as odd as that may seem to some of you who are reading this posting.

 

For those of you that are on that wavelength of understanding my family recieved word some time ago that the simbiotic operation of the Earth was in decline, the souls that pursue to resolve that situation are now on their way and once we find out a way to reconnect with each other and get the uplink back in operation we should have things sorted. We havent been in this situation before so we are going to try to create an expression of harmony and hope its picked up somewhere on the radar. Obviously there are time delay issues because the outer membrane is still expanding at light speed..at least it was when I left and so I have had to come opposite to that directional flow. For those of you slow on the uptake the Earth has been in consciousness time delay. Because the outer universe / membrane is a complete sphere..give or take a few blank spots that have been left for the new arrivals to safely experiment with (think of it as a semi permeable membrane in an osmosis experiment)..we have a full and united knowledge. The Earth of course was the safest place for people to rise to consciousness because it meant that in the interim if they stuffed up the harmony it would be contained. As mankind elevates the nature of what he considers to be the absolute ultimate superlative goals and the inte related framework of those is structured on a simbiotic level effectively this planet will become the ultimate heaven based upon the greatest capacity of our collective consciousness to produce. You should get ready for that and the nature of your absolutes will determine which team you are on if it truly comes to a holy war. The rules of engagement say that to play on that level you have to declare what that it is for you to one other person who is on that level of consciousness and then seek that your goal survives.

 

I should now declare my part in saying that my goal includes the creation of universal harmony as a dimension of the ultimate and I am to be judged on whether that goal should still be valid and in place upon my next return or still in place at the time of my "death". If you pursue the negative course the goal must remain in constant living presence for in excess of 2000 years and be under constant accelaration on the upscale for my original goal was global harmony and the dimension of that has now been taken to a higher level of understandable perfection and indeed that pursuit is continuing to become more common in the hearts and lives of those souls present on this planet today.

 

The belief will be in the seeing and in the hearing and that is part of the truth that some of those who literally and seriously kept the faith will now begin to experience because you will now become more conscious of instances that you consider to be perfect harmony. Once you have had two expressions you may confidently rely on the fact that the old world dynamics that you remember are long gone.

 

Or at least thats the theory! lol

[snoopy]

To Boersun,

 

No Im saying that synapses etc are the machinery on which your `soul` runs on and is not your `soul`. To simplify your soul is not the computer-brain-like structures your `soul` runs on its not even the computer-brain-like program its the `running` of that program that is your soul and therefore is a non-physical event (non reductive physicalism).

 

As I said im just playing `Devils Advocate` :).

 

As to your postulation that this `soul` would be nothing special I have to disagree as a non-physical event it would be subject to rules outside physics and physics could not `ever` explain `concious thought` which just happens to be the situation at the moment...... curiouser and curiouser.

 

The fact that `perhaps` ( I havent proved anything its just a postulation)

our minds or `souls` might be outside the rules of physics is definitely `mysterious`.

[LJP07]

the universe (some conceptualise it as heaven) seeks to merge with a living body in tune with the same conceptualised ultimates and ultimately the two incrementally collide in what for some people feels like incremental reincarnation or incremental realisation.

 

I'm not going to bother to read the rest as I can't make 100% sense of what your trying to say. It's not any theory as it's not proven, it's barely an idea or hypothesis your providing in the first place.

 

You seem to deliberately make it difficult and make it sound better by continuing to use big words all the time, thus making it complicated, the quote above shows this perfectly, I wouldn't even say it's the best example but rephrase please. I'm sure there might be a few others who feel the same.

 

Speaking of Deja Vu, I had a case where I predicted a thread that was going to be posted. I wanted to put a thread on about "H5N1", I researched it to but while in research I thought " It probably wouldn't be good discussion, it may already be talked about". The next day, someone which is there today has a thread called "H5N1", that's coincidence, but wouldn't put it down to deja vu, did this around the time of wanting to write about deja vu here too. Just weird when things like this happen. :)

[rocket art]

I remember many years back when I was a kid I used to hear sermons from bible studies of charismatic groups stating that the human being is composed of physical body, soul and spirit. The soul comprises the 'mind'. I'm not religious, and I veered away from the leanings towards fundamentalism by such groups, but I believe in higher sense that others may say as Spirituality.

 

yes i have.it was like being aboard a starship or a reaaly cool disco.loved it

Jungjedi, aren't you supposed to 'forget' such memories afterwards?

 

If you experience deja vu quite often, I suggest you might need to see a neurologist.

 

And I sugest you don't see someone who doesn't know or have any experience with deja vu, even when that someone is a neurologist. If he had not experienced such, then he won't know anything about it. It is an experience.

 

I may state another of my 'rocket philosophy' that may relate with deja vu topic: "How much we know about our past may depend on how far we could reach our future".

 

the universe (some conceptualise it as heaven) seeks to merge with a living body in tune with the same conceptualised ultimates and ultimately the two incrementally collide in what for some people feels like incremental reincarnation or incremental realisation.

 

Clapstyx, you seem to be visualizing inner sense of Energy permeating from within all that exists in the Universe, and how the outside reacts with it.

[LJP07]

The soul comprises the 'mind'.

 

If he had not experienced such, then he won't know anything about it. It is an experience.

 

 

I think the first statement might be missing something, surely the soul cannot just be the mind. If so there would be no such things as ghosts as it's mental and not physical. If so, Priests are supposed to have beliefs in ghosts but in your sermon, this was said, is this not a religious contradiction?

 

I must also disagree with the second statement, does a Psychologist experience every mental disorder, no. But do they help, yes. They understand mental processes and help the patient to overcome these mental issues they face. Your statement rubs the wrong side of the face of mental specialists.

[coberst]

How can wo/man break clear of the social structure created by past generations? How can sapiens isolate them self sufficiently to become self-determined creatures from the habits and uncritical social structure that is destined to destroy the species and perhaps the planet if not restructured?

 

The answer is contained herein.

 

From immortality to abstraction to soul to religion to art

 

The urge for abstraction originated in the sense of immortality within primitive wo/man. The conjunction of abstraction with immortality in turn developed in the concept of ‘soul’. This chain of events subsequently created religion; art then led beyond abstraction to the objectivizing and concretizing of the prevailing idea of the soul.

 

Anything produced objectively in a period by the current idea of the soul was considered to be beautiful. The aesthetic history of the concept of beauty is likely to be nothing more than changing contemporary conception of the soul that resulted from the ever increasing knowledge.

 

Artistic creation, “art-will” must be comprehended as an expression of both a personal will of the artist and also as an expression of the collective ideologies, i.e. the religious and philosophical ideologies, effecting the artist. “The artist as a definite creative individual uses the art form that he finds in order to express something personal”. We might well ask ‘what are the motives and processes that trigger the art-will in order to create an art-achievement’?

 

To comprehend art and the artist we must focus upon the art-will of the artist and we must also consider the religious and philosophical tendencies of the times; we must consider the collective ideologies of the time. The artist must use what is at hand to express something personal and creative that is somehow connected with the collective nature of the times. The individual artist creates her art while simultaneously using the art in vogue at the time.

 

The belief in immortality seems to express it self both in art and in social institutions like religion in a parallel manner. The essence of the art-will seems to be to eternalize the object of the art-accomplishment. To give an object of art immortality in an abstract form is to bring it to its absolute value. There is in art an “instinctive urge to abstraction”; religion being the best example of that urge. The primitive religious belief in souls is abstract in conception and has been called by more advanced religions wherein gods have already taken a concrete form

 

The idea of soul as it progresses through history is important consideration here. Original primitive art is an attempt to make concrete what is abstract. The soul, an abstraction, is represented in a concrete manner. It is evident that art and religion are conjoined from primitive times to the present.

 

Religious art is a display of the ever changing concept of what is beautiful. The concept of the beautiful that inspires the art of a period is derived not from the abstract concept of soul but from the concretization of that concept.

 

Religious art concretes the abstract idea of soul and thereby makes the soul convincing; it creates something tangible and lasting of a concept as it moves down from generation to generation by a mystical verbal tradition that became fixed only later.

 

“This close association, in fact fundamental identity, of art and religion, each of which strives in its own way to make the absolute eternal and the eternal absolute, can be already seen at the most primitive stages of religious development, where there are as yet neither representations if gods nor copies of nature.”

 

Quotes and ideas from “Art and Artist” by Otto Rank

[rocket art]

I think the first statement might be missing something, surely the soul cannot just be the mind. If so there would be no such things as ghosts as it's mental and not physical. If so, Priests are supposed to have beliefs in ghosts but in your sermon, this was said, is this not a religious contradiction?

 

Indeed, the soul has to be more than that and it needs to be holistically addressed. As I mentioned before, I stayed away from the fundamentalist leaning of the group as this discussion exposes that the less holistic teachings of the 'soul' made them conducive to mind manipulation or brainwashing as fundamentalists had become.

 

Ghosts may be anomalous packets of memory in the space-time construct.

 

 

I must also disagree with the second statement, does a Psychologist experience every mental disorder, no. But do they help, yes. They understand mental processes and help the patient to overcome these mental issues they face. Your statement rubs the wrong side of the face of mental specialists.

 

But your psychologist have basis in treating such mental 'disorder' by what would be constituted to as 'order'. An individual having no experience to deja vu cannot have any basis be cause he/she doesn't have anything to compare with as he/she lacks the experience.

Besides, how is mental 'disorder' or 'order' really defined? by a sense of order as the norms and paradigms of a certain social order dictates? If society is conditioned to materialistic, compromising sense of order, would an individual exhibiting weird, eccentric behavior be suspected as having disorder? If a society is brainwashed to Iraqi WMD threat by media bombardment, would a noisy demonstrator shouting "it's a conspiracy!" be branded as nutcase for disrupting the ordered gullibility of the majority's mindset?

 

Artistic creation, “art-will” must be comprehended as an expression of both a personal will of the artist and also as an expression of the collective ideologies, i.e. the religious and philosophical ideologies, effecting the artist.

 

Otto Rank need not keep using the word "must" when speaking of the realms of art otherwise he will contradict himself. With the statement quoted, he may not be referring to an art, but to an illustrated propaganda.

[LJP07]

But your psychologist have basis in treating such mental 'disorder' by what would be constituted to as 'order'.

 

I understand your argument but it's flawed. Whether an issue is a mental disorder, mental order, or social dis/order is irrelevant. Every person is different and some people will call it a disorder, some people may love it. But for those people that experience it that call it a disorder, they want it helped, and the mental specialists that help people overcome whatever particular problem they have are the Specialists. Let's not call it disorder/order, but the Patients Problem.

[rocket art]

Let's not call it disorder/order, but the Patients Problem.

How about the "Doctor's Problem"?

[LJP07]

Let's keep it at " Patients Problem " :hihi:

 

Back to the original thread topic, do atheists/agnostics believe in souls or ghosts even if they don't believe in the religion that supports it?

[Pyrotex]

...Back to the original thread topic, do atheists/agnostics believe in souls or ghosts even if they don't believe in the religion that supports it?

Typically, no. The underlying reason for being an atheist/agnostic is to avoid having to make oneself believe in unsubstantiated, unsupportable, counter-logical, and irrational "beings" or concepts.

 

Atheists (who are intentionally atheistic) put gods, ghosts, leprechauns, poltergiests, blue elephants on Mars, talking trees, invisible friends, the Easter bunny and garden variety fairies all in the same basket: labled "imaginary".

[rocket art]

Atheists (who are intentionally atheistic) put gods, ghosts, leprechauns, poltergiests, blue elephants on Mars, talking trees, invisible friends, the Easter bunny and garden variety fairies all in the same basket: labled "imaginary".

 

You're being unfair, that seems generalizing them to the lable as "unimaginative" which is far worse.