Good narcotics, or bad?

[CraigD]

Here is a super link as promised

Schizophrenia.com - Marijuana Cannabis and Schizophrenia

 

It says as well what an old hippie said to me when I was younger and needed to be cool, do not smoke before you are 20...

Or another …

I’m skeptical of the conclusions quoted in these articles, as well as the anecdotes of old hippies (a label commonly applied to me :eek: ). Although many (of the studies, not the hippies) cite well-known studies, they appear to conclude that these studies have demonstrated a causal connection between cannabis use and schizophrenia, a claim not present in the currently accepted literature I’ve read.

 

”Causal association between cannabis and psychosis: examination of the evidence” (2004 Arseneault, Cannon, Witton & Murray) strikes me as one of the better recent metastudies on the subject, and appears to either cite or be the source of the “8%” in statement such as the schizophrenia.com article’s

Dr. Pat McGorry, a top researcher on this topic in Australia (click for interview) has estimated that around 8% of cases of schizophrenia (in Australia) are linked to cannabis / marijuana use.

Note, however, that Arseneault, Cannon, Witton & Murray’s conclusion is

On an individual level, cannabis use confers an overall twofold increase in the relative risk for later schizophrenia. At the population level, elimination of cannabis use would reduce the incidence of schizophrenia by approximately 8%, assuming a causal relationship. Cannabis use appears to be neither a sufficient nor a necessary cause for psychosis. It is a component cause, part of a complex constellation of factors leading to psychosis.

In short, what this and other research appears to indicate is that a small population, identified in some studies by “self reported psychotic symptoms at age 11 years”, who are diagnosed as with schizophrenia as adults, would not be if they had not used cannabis before the age of 18. As is common in studies, the only conclusion common to nearly all the studies surveyed is that more studies are needed.

 

In addition, I’m skeptical of the claim that cannabis can cause mental illness in normal people for neurochemical reasons. The pharmodynamics of cannabis is fairly well understood, and are similar to that of drugs like the opioids (eg: morphine, heroine). The principle psychoactive ingredient in cannabis, THC, activates cannabinoid receptors found in the brain and many other organs, which are normally activated by endogenous cannabinoids produced naturally in the body (How the body synthesizes cannabinoids is not well understood, though the mechanism is likely to be similar to that of other, better studied neurotransmitters). Because it is mimicking a naturally occurring psychoactive and analgesic substance, I suspect that it carries no greater risk of psychological damage than other drugs that work in this way, such as the opioids. The Opioids are well-studied, widely used, and not known to cause schizophrenia.

 

By no means would I suggest that cannabis is not a contributing factor to many personal problems. Used responsibly and in moderation, however, I don’t believe it is more dangerous than many licit drugs, such as caffeine and alcohol.

[CraigD]

that is true. and i, for the most part, agree. But there is also the risk of alcohol poisoning. this can lead to death, and has many times. which is worse than both the previous mental conditions.

Yes, if you really drink too much (even if is the only time you ever drink in your life) can be deathly. No need for long time dependency for that.

But I do not consider this in my judgement because this is not a consequence of addiction

As both Ganoderma and sanctus note, a large dose of alcohol can be deadly.

 

In addition to sudden death from an overdose, ultimately fatal long-term effects of chronic alcohol abuse and malnutrition common to sever alcoholics, and stresses and risks associated with an alcoholic lifestyle, it is possible to die from a diseases caused by a relatively short period of excessive or even moderate alcohol consumption. One such disease is alcoholic hepatitis.

 

A friend of mine died of it this past fall. A recently discharged US Navy SEAL, his physical condition was excellent (and much envied by his friends). Following an acrimonious divorce, he went on a self-destructive, 6-month-long journey of isolation and drinking. He then met and fell in love with a woman (also a heavy drinker). Despite reducing his drinking (and entertaining ideas of stopping altogether), he began to feel chronically ill, and was hospitalized. Despite excellent medical care, including hemodialysis, he died less than 2 weeks after his admission.

(or it seems to me only very very rarely alcoholics do this, I neverheard of an alcohlic being in ethilic coma)

During the time I worked we worked in hospitals, I, my wife, my father, and my mother have personally seen many old alcoholics in fatal commas due to alcohol overdoses. Although with many drugs, especially pain-killers and sleep-inducers, long-term use increase the size of the lethal dose, alcohol is not such a drug.

 

I think the perception that damaging or fatal overdoses of alcohol require lower doses among inexperienced drinkers is due to a combination of several highly publicized cases involving young college students, and greater respect on the part of experienced drinkers for the dangers of drinking too much in a short period.

 

Many long-term alcoholics suffer from liver impairment or damage (Cirrhosis) that impairs their ability to metabolize alcohol. Such people actually become drunk on and can tolerate less alcohol than a normal person. It’s suspected that many cases of death-by-drinking by experienced drinkers result from a sudden loss of liver function (such as the hepatitis I described above), causing drinking an amount that normally would not have even severely impaired them to become fatal.

 

A real factor contributing to young drinkers being injured or killed by binge drinking is that many of them are significantly physically smaller than older people. Because alcohol is carried to tissues in a fairly even concentration in the blood, it’s effect is somewhat proportional to your volume of blood, which is closely related to your mass. Despite movie depictions of it (eg: small women outdrinking large men) it’s foolish to attempt to match a person much larger than you drink-for-drink – unless you know your opponent’s liver is impaired, in which case it’s murderous.

[Michaelangelica]

Gee fascinating stuff here especially from Craig

I fell across the thread while looking for narcolepsy (The search engine worked?!)

Good narcotics, or bad?

It is a hard question to answer because this thread talks about all drugs.

There is no doubt that alcohol and tobacco are our major drug killers followed next by ADRs from the drug/pharmaceutical industry.

 

Some thoughts on some I know a little about

alcohol

This is getting out of hand with our youth. I am quite alarmed by it.

Australia has long being a nation of beer drinkers. But the kids 12-20+ are drinking spirits and sweet drinks designed for their market- Boubourn and coke is a favourite.They drink, not for the company or the taste, but to get "smashed."

 

Herorin

We have failed to stop this drug.

The money involved in it is humongous. It corrupts our police, politicians, law enforcers,judges, customs, public officials and most probably the CIA/secret services. The corruption in non-western countries like Singapore/Burma, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia etc I imagine is a lot worse. If our democratic institutions fail . . .?

It should be made available to addicts on prescription

A person can quite happily hold down a job if his heroin levels are kept at a steady level.

Some intervention maybe should(and could more easily) be made in terms of getting counselling or methadone replacement for registered addicts.

At the very least there should be shooting galleries and needle exchange "harm minimisation schemes".

 

In the past five years the female prison population in NSW has doubled all due to herorin. Judges have nowhere to send addicts (and mentally ill) but jail. This is insane social policy as well as being inhumane and cruel.

It also costs us far too many $s. It would be cheaper to put prisoners up in Five Star hotels! The jails are apparently awash with drugs and dirty needles and ex-cons contribute to the rising AIDs and hepatitis rate.

 

BTW

Tasmania is the largest (?) producer of legal opiates.

BTW2

Up until the 50's you could buy dried opium poppy heads from the chemist.

These were boiled in milk rand taken to help you sleep. You would get very little opium this way -but it is still illegal to grow/import here. Even the seeds of the wonderful "Peony Flowered Poppies" grown in English gardens.

 

Methedrine

Most of the Japanese army was on this in WW2

It was legal while I was nursing in the 70's

I had a big Psch. exam at uni and took some stayed up all night studding.

By morning I was confident I knew the psy. textbook back to front

When I got into the exam I couldn't answer one question.

 

I did husband about 6 tablets (prescribed!) and over the years would take 1/4 of a tab + coffee if I needed to finish an essay That seemed to work ok.

 

Fascinatingly ironic craig that it is a treatment for narcolepsy (and ADD?)

 

LSD

Small doses as some wit says "mostly harmless"

But people can take bad trips and it should be taken with proper supervision.

Psychiatrists were using it to help psychoanalysis for war veterans when I was nursing. terrible!

I also had patients, who though continual daily use of LSD, were on a permanent trip. While coherent, their perception of reality was psychedelic- with senses mixed up

 

Marijuana

Too much hysteria about this

There is some little schizophrenic association with adolescents.

But they are finding adolescent brains and ANY drug does not mix.

Something about the cognitive and structural changes happening in the brian

Everyone should be able to grow one plant

At the very least it should be decriminalised

It should also be available on prescription for medical use.

 

Datura and Brugmansia

These are different plants but are often confused confuses.(So study Botany or mycology first!) the daturas are especially deadly

I would suggest just growing them as pretty garden plants. You won't get much of a kick out of them and they could kill you

 

Sacred Sage

(Salvia divinorum?)

A beautiful big tropical sage.

This looked like a promisng treatment for depression

Unfortunately the faschist Australian government has stopped (legitimate university) research on it.

Another example of the hysteria and mis-information about drugs

 

ICE

Scares me stupid

Why do people take it?

 

Cocaine

Chew the leaves, put a little in coca Coal fine. But crack cocaine has been so chemically mucked about with as to be a major addiction problem

How do you treat a cocaine addict?

 

Various Party pills usually "uppers' based on 'drines

I am amazed that anyone will take any one else's pills

"Here like to try my BP tablets see what they do." (:phones:?)

Especially tablets made in backyard labs by amateur or drop out chemists

I just don't get it.

A couple of kids have died here from dehydration caused by the drugs.

 

I thought I might go into production of concentrated MSG tablets as these give many a "buzz"- but then even they could kill an asthmatic.

 

Well that's my :phones: worth

[Ganoderma]

i would have to agree with that. i think cocaine is a very grey area in my opinion. the plant itself is pretty amazing. it will help people who are hungry and thirsty, very nutritious. it is like a super betel nut or "safer" ephedra. i think the plant itself is one of the most amazing plants around. the prepared drug has gone too far to make it a viable source. but lets not forget the coca wines EVERYONE was drinking back in the day!

 

heroin/opium i also have a hard time with. i hate seeing addicts everywhere...but lets face it..many of my 80+ year old neighbors have poppies in their garden, and they ain't going anywhere haha! but there are lots of very important alkaloids in opium to make it a bad thing.

 

datura and brugmansia i agree are not worth it. i grow them as a pretty garden flower. but even just pruning them can make you feel its affects as they are topically active..therefor potentially dangerous even to granny. some fun info about it in the book "Serpent and the Rainbow".

 

i am glad you brought up salvia. i have also heard about its "anti-depressant" properties. have not seen any studies but have heard people talk. its also interesting how some people react, or don't, with this plant via different methods (oral, smoked).

 

and lastly perhaps the most absurd illegal plant i can think of is Peyote. only illegal in a couple countries. It baffles me as to why a country would make a 20 year old plant illegal to cultivate. i can grow salvia, marijuana, opium, daturas and many more in less than a year and they are for the most part legal (which is good in my opinion). But a very slow growing cactus that will take 5+ years before you can even think about eating it is illegal. its very rare in the wild to boot, and needs some serious protection in the wild...all the more reason to boost its cultivation (i know the church is allowed). The OD rate is rather high as well...especially taking taste into account.

 

actually i grow a LOT of cactus, and a LOT of peyote. they are collector plants here....but those poor americans :phones:

 

sometimes i think drug laws are first based on industry impact (ie hemp will replace many other products) then followed by religious impact (ie peyote with the indians). But we have more or less "useless" plants, like datura/brugmansia, that can easily kill people, legal everywhere....makes me noggin go round n' round.

[Queso]

Brugmansia is very interesting.

Very potent, very deadly.

I keep an angel trumpet by my bed whenever I see them blooming.

They're so potent that even just being next to them is enough for it to affect your dreams.

It's like mugwort in a sense you can just be near it for it to be psychoactive.

When ingested in very small quantities you will slowly start to hear voices, like a schizophrenic. They'll come from all around, even inside your mind.

After a while the voices will take shape, and you will see people.

Everyone you've ever known. Your friends, family, even if they are dead.

The hallucinations are SO REAL, you can reach out and touch them. (Unlike psychedelics where the hallucinations are visions inside the mind. Tropane externalizes the spirits)

Not that I would know or anything. Someone I know told me all that.

Some shamans initiate boys/young men by giving them brugmansia EVERY SINGLE DAY for over a year. :)

I can't even imagine what that would do to your mind/body.

It's a delerient.

I find it interesting how cocaine is also a tropane alkaloid. I don't see how the two are similar at all. (Except for the fact that they seem to be not evil...but slightly evil spirits. Like a really beautiful woman who eats your head after you finish making love to her)

 

IMO, you can't gain anything out of eating deadly nightshade except for a weird schizophrenic experience that will either land you in the hospital or jail.

(Read the experiences on erowid.org they are menacing)

 

If you want to gain insight and wisdom about yourself, your life, and the universe,

go to the amazon and drink ayahuasca.

That is a "drug" that is most respected all throughout the world, and is protected by the governments in south america as well.

The drink itself is amazingly healing for the mind and the body.

People say it rids you of your bad habits, shows you painfully what you've done wrong, what you need to change in your life.

I was reading a report of a guy who drank it for the first time and said he saw through the eyes of a bird.

He could see down into the rivers and see the detail of the scales on the fish!

He also said he flew to his apartment where he let his friends stay while he was in the amazon, and noticed his furniture had been rearranged.

When he returned

his furniture was indeed rearranged.

 

Science walks away from reports such as these, even though they are collectively accumulated by anyone who's ever participated in ceremony.

 

Science says that something is real when it is repeatably observed by more than one observer.

 

We'll come together eventually.

[HydrogenBond]

The reason many rationally reasonable drugs are given a bad subjective rap is due to economics. The legalization, of say marijuana, would create a lot of unemployment and could affect the economy. Consider the good paying jobs this prohibition currently creates. On the subjective bad side, it create good paying tax free jobs for the inner city. It also creates wealth and jobs for the more affluent sectors of the black markert. This has a multiplier affect as the money trickles into legitimate business. They need cars, clothes, nightclubs, alcohol, firearms, dogs, food, apartments, bling, etc. All that legal demand, then creates a lot of jobs.

 

If we go to the good side of the prohibition, we create more prisons for construction jobs. We create jobs for the guards. We create more law enforcement jobs, such as police, ATF, national guard, FBI, etc., Then there is the legal system with judges and all their support staff. The lawyers make out about as well as the drug dealing. Their job is to create a revolving door so all these other jobs keep being necessary. All these jobs, then need computers, stationary for all the paper work, communciations, which pours money into the economy to create even more jobs. One can not forget about all the hi-tech, R&D, and systems such as radar, planes, robots, drones, boats, ships, weapons, armor, surveilance equipment, telecommunicationsetc. Then there are kickbacks (campaign contributions; sorry) to polititians, so each state and various companies can share more in this very prosperous pie. All these jobs support families, buy groceries, send children to college, buy computers, TV's, houses, autos, second homes, clothes, boats, vacations, toys, etc.

 

Next, we have all the drug treatment jobs such as hospitals and all their staff, rehab centers, detox, public services, therapy, medications. All these jobs also have a multiplier affect, which may include investment incomes, stocks, etc., This is only the tip of the iceberg. So if these things were taken out of the loop, the amount of unemployment would be huge, anywhere from 500K-1M jobs.

 

All that economic prosperity is good, if one is part of the loop. But it occurs at the subjective expense of another group of people. Maybe to keep these jobs, we need to cycle the subjectivity, so each person who benefits, gets to play the role of the scapegoat, so the other scapegoats can periodically reap some of the loot. For example, we can make a lawyer type prohibiiton, periodically, that assures they play their part as the scapegoat. The system can simple reorganize and make money off them. The next year, we give them back their jobs, and pick on the polititans, in such a way, that we dont lose any jobs, but they can be the scapegoat. The idea is to keep these jobs, but refine the subjective law so everyone can take a turn as the scapegoat, and a turn as the reaper of benefit.

[Ganoderma]

i tend to agree with what you say although i do not believe that is right. certainly, narcotics create jobs and likely support whole societies at times. There is also the side that plants like hemp are enormously useful for many things (clothing for example), and may replace other industries. from an environmental perspective i prefer this, from a business perspective to many its not so appealing. i pick hemp over cotton, but i have little to loose directly. its quite a funny circle or oxymoron's and irony, this game of life.

 

orbsycli. they certainly are amazing plants. There are some very large stands of it here in the mountains (along roadsides sometimes half a km long!). when flowering you often start feeling a "buzz" (not the word) just from sitting around them have coffee or whatever. its far from recreational, and is no doubt deadly....from a public safety point of view i can't see it being that bad as not many people want to do it (i wouldn't think anyway). but then, i never thought salvia would have caught on the way it has either...now its being banned in certain places.

 

anyway i think the main point with datura/brugmansia is DELIRIUM!

I read that some people in Haiti rub this plants juices (with others) all over the body, why? i forgot. seems a big part of religion in certain African and South American societies.

 

Should we bring up the recent evens in the Netherlands and mushrooms? all i can say is if a person is F'd up to begin with, taking a substance, that is known by virtually everyone to play with your thoughts and visions, they should not be playing with such things. once the dutch say NO to these drugs, us Canadians (and others) are not going to have any examples to follow with our own laws....

[Michaelangelica]

 

 

anyway i think the main point with datura/brugmansia.

These are two different plants

Datura stramonium (Jimsonweed) is a mostly herbaceous (?)weed of more temperate areas and waste places. (zone7ish) Sometimes called devu=ils trumpet. Ironically the biggest one I have seen was 6 foot high growing in front of a church:evil:

Sometimes called "thornapple" for obvious reasons

http://www.life.uiuc.edu/help/digitalflowers/picts/Solanaceae/28-Datura%20stramonium%20fruits.jpg

Ethnobotanical and medicinal uses

Medicinal Plants of the SW: Datura stramonium

Ethnobotanical Leaflets

Datura spp - Online Ethnobotanical Education Centre.

Medicinal Uses

 

Anodyne; Anthelmintic; Antiasthmatic; Antidandruff; Antiinflammatory; Antispasmodic; Hallucinogenic; Hypnotic; Mydriatic; Narcotic.

 

The thornapple is a bitter narcotic plant that relieves pain and encourages healing[238]. It has a long history of use as a herbal medicine, though it is very poisonous and should be used with extreme caution. The leaves, flowering tops and seeds are anodyne, antiasthmatic, antispasmodic, hallucinogenic, hypnotic, mydriatic and narcotic[1, 4, 7, 9, 13, 21, 46, 165, 238, 240]. The seeds are the most active medicinally[4]. The plant is used internally in the treatment of asthma and Parkinson's disease, excess causes giddiness, dry mouth, hallucinations and coma[238].

Datura stramonium - Plants For A Future database report

 

 

 

Brugmansia suaveolens (and spp) are large, perennial, tropical ornamentals (Zone 9+) growing on several stems up to 20+ foot high and 15+ feet wide. Although in gardens they are usually pruned to a more manage able size. They have stunning flowers 12+ inches long in a wide range of colours. Most hav abeautiful fragrance

 

 

Unfortunately the common names "Angel's/ Devils Trumpet & Datura are often interchanged with both. The Datura has similar but smaller flowers than Brugmnsia. I have grown Brugmansias for any years but never seen one set seed.

Ethnobotanical & medicinal uses

Toe (Brugmansia suaveolens)

The leaves are smoked to relieve asthma. A steam bath is prepared from the leaves for bad coughs and bronchitis. The juice is boiled and mixed with lard as an external application for burns, scalds, inflammations and haemorrhoids.

 

Poultices made of the leaves are applied to arthritic or rheumatic pains, swellings and badly healing wounds . It is used as an antispasmodic to control Parkinson's disease.

 

In the Amazon, Brugmansia is used in magical practices for visionary journeys, shape-shifting, divination, clairvoyance, love magic, aphrodisiac, amulets, and incense. Scopolamine is responsible for the visionary effects and is the alkaloid occurring in highest concentration.

 

All drugs/herbs meet some need of the society they are from. sometimes there is thousands of years of knowledge and use of the plant. The plant can effect the societies stucture, power base, religion, art, myths and world view.

 

Look our plants change our society.

 

When another society takes these exotic plants and introduces them to another society/culture there are often major problems

Chocolate is no longer as healthy as it was when used in S America because it contains stacks of sugar and fat.

 

Tobacco was cermoniusly smoked by native american Indials mixed with a number of other herbs including Lobelia Inflata

Lobeline from Lobelia inflata is used as a substitute for nicotine. it is not addictive

One hundred years of Hollowood films of people puffing away every minute of the movie.

Indians never used the plant that way.

 

Cocaine helps Indians of Peru and Columbia get more oxygen into their lungs when they are working at high levels. It is also a mild pick me up . I think it is chewed with lime?. Now we have this dreadful substance crack cocaine, 1,000 times more potent than the leaves from the bush. Something out of a mad scientist's chemistry kit snorted up your nose.

"Eureka I have found the active ingredient in coca leaves -the Nobel Prize is mine hahahahaha"

 

Same too with the hallucinogens. Three are often cleansing, fasting rituals associated with the plant use. there may be other plants added to ameliorate or potentate the effects. These are often ignored as we go after the "active ingredient" with our narrow, blind scientific minds.

You need to go to these societies and learn how to use these plants from them in their world. What purpose do they have? What can you learn about nature the world, plants and our place in it?

 

Mark Plotkin says in his book "When a shaman dies; it is like a medieval library going up in flames". Although he has a doctorate in botany he was in awe of the shaman's knowledge. Once he took two plants back to the Harvard lab. which he was sure were exactly the same plant. The shaman said they were different plants. The shaman was right but it took a lab full of havard Uni.high tech. equipment for Mark to find that out.

Using these plants to escape western reality is a travesty of the traditions and cultures that developed a relationship with these plants.

 

I urge you to read books from The Harvard Uni. Ethnobotanical School

One very readable one is "The Shaman's Apprentice" by Mark Plotkin

Perhaps go on an ethno botanical tour of S. America with Dr. James Duke who runs these from time to time.

I would love to go on one. I would even put up with Duke singing Country and Western and reading his dreadful poems.

(Duke's Free WWW Data base is a good place to go if you want details of plants, chemicals in them and ethno botanical use)

[HydrogenBond]

The reality of many drugs, is that some people can go too far. In the process of protecting such individuals, everyone is treated like the lowest common denominator. It would be like if someone gets addicted to fast food and ends up with health problems, then nobody can eat fast foods.

 

This is all well and good, but it is not consistent across the board. There are certain things, that fit this template, that don't get on the nanny list. It may come down to what the leaders like to do and don't like do, with their pet indulgences exempt from the list. It is not based on some type of rational comparison scale will everything on the table.

 

Another problem is that many of these nanny laws are based on the approach of statistics. This approach does not treat one as an individual. So, there is no burden of proof to show that the end result will occur in any given circumstance. One gets lumped into a category, sort of like a stereo-type. This stereo-type is treated like it is rational science. There are no requirements that justice treat you as an individual, with the burden of proof on their shoulder to show you fit the type.

 

It amounts to a scapegoat mentality, that singles out a group behavior, so we can create jobs at the expense of the scapegoat. An analogy is because some lawyers are shaddy, we will now make all lawyers the scapegoat. We can now create jobs dealing with this scapegoat. Since we are stealing liberties and treating honest lawyers like they are criminals, they have no moral choice, but to resist. This is good, since it will create a situation that will guarentee perpetual jobs. If we treat the honest lawyers like criminals long enough, they may decide to get their moneys worth, as compensation for the disrespect. This is also good, since it could esculate the bad behavior, requiring more jobs.

 

If instead, we interviewed each lawyer, separately, and exempted all the honest lawyers, we just made this huge problem much smaller. A shaddy lawyer is not going to fight for justice, only for the evasion of justice. One is no longer taking liberties from the honest lawyers. This would create a different social dynamics that is not full of patriots whose moral duty as an American is to resist the social injustices of the statistical scapegoat. On the down side, this won't create as many jobs.

[Ganoderma]

Michaelangelica: sorry for my bad explanations. my comparison with datura/brugmansia is purely that the effects on the body are very similar and they are active in much the same way. Mainly talking about various alkaloids, scopolamine and atropine. They are both active in virtually every way it seems, and are often used topically or orally. i was not referring to them being the same, just similar effects. they are totally different plants from opposites sides of the globe.

 

in many places in the new world and around central america/carribean the two are interchanged for much the same purpose. mostly in areas high in black slaves (from teh past) where they brought their own rituals and such with datura (and others) and got introduced to new ones of the land like brugmansia. its interesting how they figure stuff out.

 

i have tried to find many of Harvard's botanical notes and such, but i really don't know how...many of the good ones i want are out f print and just have no clue how to find them. i would love to find some of shultes old writings of various things, especially his orchid work...but i am unsure how to get those.

 

Dr. Dukes website is great! missing some stuff and lots of useful plants, but is an all around great resource! link if anyone wants to take a boo: Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases

 

Hydrogen, i agree. one bad apple type thing. I agree, many of these things are perhaps good for the economy, but some things are really bad for freedom and safety. Frankly i don't care how good or bad this is.....tobacco being sold as legal and killing millions and pot being used with no deaths (and all its other great uses for industry) is just wrong in my books. I don't know how we as people allow this, and worse, go on...

[Ganoderma]

a quick look at salvia, not a great article, i was actually searchign this site for an exceptionally bad misleading article on salvia but thought i woudl post this -ok- article on teh possitive side.

 

Canada: Psychotropic Plant Has Medical Science Abuzz

Dr. Roth, whose lab at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland was the first to map its molecular makeup five years ago, says salvinorin A is a "kappa-opiate agonist" that binds to a single type of receptor in the brain.

 

"It's amazing that this drug targets that particular receptor," he said. "Most drugs are not so selective. LSD hits about 50 receptors."

 

While pure salvinorin A is unlikely to have any use as a medication, its derivatives could be useful, and about 200 have been isolated so far, Dr. Roth says. Compounds that could block the effects of Salvia may be candidates for treating depression, schizophrenia or Alzheimer's-induced dementia.

 

"It's a really, really hot area in medical chemistry right now," Dr. Roth said.

 

 

another interesting article. take from what you like.

for the record, salvia is a semi-tropical plant in the sage family and likes shaded areas with good water and humidity. peyote is a small extremely growing cactus that grows in dry ht arid areas. the only two similarities are they both come from mexico, and they contain hallucinogenic chemicals. i often wonder abut certain articles credibility, and when i read things like below i tend to have a hard time believe any of it.

 

that said i do find parts of this article ok, others complete ..."Salvia, also known as peyote..." ???

 

CN AB: Setting The Record Straight

Ketamine and GHB cause the brain to get "over-revved," raise body temperature to fever levels and bring about severe dehydration.

 

Although both of these drugs are associated with rape, Sanderson stressed that the most common drug with sexual assault is alcohol. What's more, it's usually self-induced.

 

....

Salvia, also known as peyote, is legal in Canada, but is currently on the Health Canada watch list. Sanderson says if smoked, the effects produced are 10 times that of LSD.

[Queso]

idiots.

[Ganoderma]

a couple neat videos :)

 

YouTube - psychedelic science (part one) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWUw4iuPKM

 

YouTube - psychedelic science (part two) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIWXwXc7Kto

 

YouTube - Psychedelic Science...Part Three http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEh7A8WZQj8

[shadetreecountryboy]

The only thing that's scary is that some of these people drive.

 

Any psychonaut should KNOW NOT to drive while in nonordinary reality. You can kill someone. Kill yourself. . . And you'd barely even realize it. While all the buildings are melting, and whispering the most divine wisdom you've ever heard . . You forget about life and swerve out of control pinning a baby and her mama to a brick McDonalds.

 

It takes a while for people to understand that some of these drugs are entheogenic sacraments, and should only be taken in a ritualistic, and a safe environment with a shaman, or a guide.

 

It's true. "Ecstacy" is MDMA cut with something else. A lot of the times caffeine, sometimes methamphetamine. I've heard of cocaine and heroin also but . . What kind of dealer would want to waste that expensive product on some cheap pill?

 

I personally do not trust MDMA, nor Ecstacy. I've witnessed people who take that stuff and they remind me of zombies. I don't like those kind of eyes.

 

A psychedelic person would NEVER harm someone else. Only on accident, with a car. (I'm sure there are minor loopholes . . always is)

Nor would somebody who just smoked a big ol' spliff of cannabis indica.

 

A drunk is definitely dangerous. Alcohol makes the monkey confident, loose, cool. Yeah man, I can drive. . .

Also, DRUNK people are just so stupid! Poisonous liquid to numb my nervous system?? Ahhh . . Wonderful.

And no I'm not calling everyone who drinks, dumb.

The majority of Americans down their television with alcohol because it's legal, and they have no desire for anything else out of fear. Propaganda. Poppa Chongo.

 

Now let's see here, as for psychedelics like Mescaline, Psilocybin, and LSD . .

The american government is terrified of these substances. They spent so much money, and decades researching these chemicals. Theye experimented with interrogation, dosing people at random.

They thought they had found the key to the universe!

(See MK-ULTRA)

 

Wasn't until 10 years after the CIA found out about it the Amry started testing it out. They even made an LSD missle!!

 

Now . . Imagine that. LSD will tear you apart @ 500 micrograms

and they were trying to spray that on people???

 

I'm sure some people turned into vegetables, and lived in alice in wonder land for the rest of their lives.

 

Anyone who wants to dive deep into the myesteries of the universe, you can use your mind, and you can turn your minds sensitivity up with psychedelics. It's true. That is why they are so special, and have been a divine sacrament ever since the first monkey saw god.

 

Oh yeah, and tobacco.

 

Americans and their feeble stimulents . .

COFFEE TOBACCO RUSH RUSH GO HOME ALCOHOL ZZZ COFFEE

 

Everyone has their own rituals. And everyone should respect another ones rituals, unless they are physically harming you, like a serial killer and his rituals . .

 

Rare.

 

Beware, that's all.

 

It doesn't matter if psychedelics are illegal, becase the seekers will always find the keys.

 

In a society where every one drives, and most people are dumb, psychedelics should be illegal.

 

:beer:

 

These are my observations from the underground.

orbsycli:

I agree with you, alcohol is the worst, seen it myself. I know a responsible guy who could not function because of his pain and he takes his extended release morphine the way he is supposed to and everything works much better for him. It allows him to get up, get out, live without assistance, go to school part time and make A's and B's in subjects like science ,psych.,etc.,etc. Without it he would need assisted living. There is a time, there is a place,,,for everything. The key is RESPONSIBILITY!

[Michaelangelica]

“When the whites came, our ancestors consulted the Sun God. He told them to trust in the coca leaf.

Coca will feed and cure you, he said. But coca will turn the white man into brutes and idiots…”

Myth recounted by an old Peruvian Indian.

FROM

Environmental Impacts of

Coca Production and Eradication

in Colombia

Merel van der Mark

http://video.lulu.com/items/volume_62/67000/67787/2/print/67787.pdf

 

 

 

[Ganoderma]

“When the whites came, our ancestors consulted the Sun God. He told them to trust in the coca leaf.

Coca will feed and cure you, he said. But coca will turn the white man into brutes and idiots…”

 

lol, thats a good one :)

 

i have been searching for a lot of various things about this and that, and figured this was rather relevant, and at this time i am focusing my studies on peyote.

 

http://www.neurosoup.com/pdf/halpern.peyote.2005.pdf

Psychological and Cognitive Effects of Long-Term Peyote Use Among Native Americans

 

John H. Halpern, Andrea R. Sherwood, James I. Hudson, Deborah Yurgelun-Todd, and Harrison G. Pope Jr.

 

Background: Hallucinogens are widely used, both by drug abusers and by peoples of traditional cultures who ingest these substances

for religious or healing purposes. However, the long-term residual psychological and cognitive effects of hallucinogens remain poorly

understood.

 

Methods: We recruited three groups of Navajo Native Americans, age 18–45: 1) 61 Native American Church members who regularly

ingested peyote, a hallucinogen-containing cactus; 2) 36 individuals with past alcohol dependence, but currently sober at least 2

months; and 3) 79 individuals reporting minimal use of peyote, alcohol, or other substances. We administered a screening interview,

the Rand Mental Health Inventory (RMHI), and ten standard neuropsychological tests of memory and attentional/executive functions.

 

Results: Compared to Navajos with minimal substance use, the peyote group showed no significant deficits on the RMHI or any

neuropsychological measures, whereas the former alcoholic group showed significant deficits (p .05) on every scale of the RMHI and

on two neuropsychological measures. Within the peyote group, total lifetime peyote use was not significantly associated with

neuropsychological performance.

 

Conclusions: We found no evidence of psychological or cognitive deficits among Native Americans using peyote regularly in a

religious setting. It should be recognized, however, that these findings may not generalize to illicit hallucinogen users.

 

 

edit, ignore the home site this pdf is hosted on, its kind of retarded. but the pdf itself is a good read, done by credible people.

[enorbet2]

Aside from the fact that much of the rationale and motivation for legislation resulting in the criminalization of possession and/or use of psychoactive substances was and still is racially and social class prejudice driven making it suspect as it now exists, from every other standpoint of view - medically, educationally, socially, politically, philosophically, economically, historically, you name it, there is no rational argument for governments punishing citizens for simple possession of such a substance or it's legal sale. While on the subject of legal sale it should be immediately pointed out that a massive, quantum leap increase in organized crime in all areas occurred directly as a result of the failed experiment of "Prohibition" in the US.

 

Before Prohibition, there was little need nor opportunity for interstate smuggling, distribution, amateur labs, money laundering on grand scale. etc. The primary forms of organized crime prior to 1919, if we leave out the controversial "crimes" of Prostitution and Gambling for another thread, was kidnapping and simple theft. Gangs were small and localized because that was secure, efficient and above all, profitably economical. This phenomenal growth was nearly global in scope as the same tragicomedy played out virtually unchanged everywhere Prohibition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. That it has been revived "on steroids" against such historical facts is possibly the single most amazing case of either amnesia or cold, calculating greed (and as mentioned above, prejudice) in human history. It should be obvious to even a casual observer that not only has the War on Drugs been a colossal failure in succeeding in what was supposed to be it's primary goal, it has instead thrown gasoline on the fire! Are there less nationwide, even global, gangs with sufficient funds to buy advanced firearms, politicians, police, judges, etc and seduce children to join the ranks of the criminal enterprise or more? Pick any timeframe for comparison. For this reason alone the foundation of such corruption and violence, obvious easy high profits driven higher in direct proportion to risk, should be gutted by taking the profit out through decriminalization. It would be interesting to see what has happened to the criminal marijuana market in places like California where it faces near legal competition.

 

Perhaps the biggest benefit of all, perhaps only second to the greater availability of medicine to those who need it (criminalization creates an atmosphere of shame and fear reducing dialogue, research, and prescription of risky drugs) is that it necessitates that people be more responsible for their own actions, including the education of children. Comments like "most people are dumb" are arrogant, ignorant and bigotted in the extreme and display the very sort of self-congratulating nonsense that started this mess. It is probably impossible to chart all the negative effects that have come as "spinoffs" to the Drug War, eating away at the fabric of trust, confidence and the concept of Brother's Keeper. I am reminded of the book "Growing Up Absurd" by Paul Goodman in non-fiction and the allegory in fiction embodied by the HAL 9000 in "2001" and "2010" as to the insidious, deleterious effects of inconsistent programming.