Bronze Age collapse...

[Boerseun]

From Wiki:

The Bronze Age collapse is the name of the period of history of the Ancient Middle East extending between the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms, the Hittite Empire in Anatolia and Syria and the Egyptian Empire in Syria and Palestine between 1206 and 1150 BC, down to the rise of settled Aramaean kingdoms of the mid 10th century BC, and the rise of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. In the first phase of this period, almost every city between Troy and Gaza was destroyed, and often left unoccupied thereafter (eg Troy, Hattusas, Mycenae, Ugarit etc).

 

It's the first time I've heard of this! Mighty interesting!

 

Some of the historians actually say this this was a bigger calamity in the Ancient World than the fall of the Roman Empire! Anyone know anything about this? There are plenty postulated causes, from earthquakes to drought to invasion by the mysterious sea peoples...

[eric l]

The wiki article states that "iron, whilst inferior to bronze weapons was in more plentiful supply" I'm not really an autohority on the subject, but :

• 
  iron needs a higher temperature for melting than bronze

• 
  iron can be wrought to a lasting cutting edge, which is hardly possible with bronze

This would make iron tools and weapons more rare but superior to bronze.

 

It is also remarkable tha the period is so short (about two generations). This may seem quite long if compared to the "blitzkrieg" of Alexander the Great, almost a millenium later. But Alexander had a highly organized army to start with.

[HydrogenBond]

The bronze age was connected to metallurgy with copper and zinc to make brass and bronze. Copper can be found in nature already as the metal. There are still huge clumps in upper Michigan. These two metals and their alloys can be smelted in a wood fire. To make iron required using coal for the higher melting temperature. Early iron weapons trials were not reliable steel but contained impurities, making the weapons less reliable in comparision to refined bronze. Once they learned how to add the right amount of C to burn off the O impurities to make C-steel, the rest is history, i.e., Iron Age. A good iron sword would bend the bronze sword, making it much less affective in battle.

[LaurieAG]

Early iron weapons trials were not reliable steel but contained impurities, making the weapons less reliable in comparision to refined bronze.

 

Don't forget that, in certain early stages at least, metallic meteorites were the main source of iron because of the difficulties you describe in the processing of raw iron ore. The meteoritic material was more likely be a stronger alloy as many impurities would be burnt out as they come down.

 

I also worked on a lead zinc mine in the early 1980's during a drought. While driving the 65 kilometres into the nearest town I would regularly see vast areas of marble sized iron nodules on the ground, exposed because there was no grass.

[eric l]

Don't forget that, in certain early stages at least, metallic meteorites were the main source of iron because of the difficulties you describe in the processing of raw iron ore. The meteoritic material was more likely be a stronger alloy as many impurities would be burnt out as they come down.

 

I also worked on a lead zinc mine in the early 1980's during a drought. While driving the 65 kilometres into the nearest town I would regularly see vast areas of marble sized iron nodules on the ground, exposed because there was no grass.

 

Even if you can start from metallic iron (from meteorities or other sources) you need more than a wood fire to forge your nodules or nuggets into tools or weapons. (This of course if you do not want to throw you iron nodules at the nemy with something like a catapult.)

[Turtle]

Even if you can start from metallic iron (from meteorities or other sources) you need more than a wood fire to forge your nodules or nuggets into tools or weapons. (This of course if you do not want to throw you iron nodules at the nemy with something like a catapult.)

 

Actually, that is not the case. A charcoal fire driven by a bellows is sufficient.> Primitive Blacksmithing

 

Some of the historians actually say this this was a bigger calamity in the Ancient World than the fall of the Roman Empire! Anyone know anything about this? There are plenty postulated causes, from earthquakes to drought to invasion by the mysterious sea peoples...

 

Let's not forget to add meteor (space rock?) impact. I recall the recent discovery of a large impact crater in deserts of either Middle East or N. Africa; not sure if its dated or not. I'll have a bit of a look for a link. :)

 

Edit >> add link..

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Huge impact crater found in Egypt

 

So this is what I was thinking of, but its millions of years old so it's out. But, it got me thinking a meteor strike in water could cause a tsunami in the Mediterranean & put the kabosh on human activity without leaving a noticeable crater. We would need to look for jumbled marine sediment deposits high or far inland of the shores. Whatcha think? :hihi:

[Boerseun]

But, it got me thinking a meteor strike in water could cause a tsunami in the Mediterranean & put the kabosh on human activity without leaving a noticeable crater. We would need to look for jumbled marine sediment deposits high or far inland of the shores. Whatcha think? :naughty:

Interesting possibility! I'm not sure if a similar deposition of any specific matter was found at all the digs, but it sure could be a possibility. The only problem is that it seems as if the collapse took place in about two generations. I'm not too sure how they fine-tune that specific timing, but if that's the case, then it prolly wasn't impact-driven. More likely, I guess, the advent of some New! Improved! technology that made the owners of it better killers?

[eric l]

Actually, that is not the case. A charcoal fire driven by a bellows is sufficient.> Primitive Blacksmithing

 

 

You simply prove my point ! There is a huge difference between a wood fire and a charcoal fire (even if not driven by bellows).

• 
  Temperatures reached with a charcoal fire will be 300°C or more higher than temperatures that can be reached with a wood fire (no heat wasted in drying the wood, no gasses excaping and making a flame where you do not need the heat...)

• 
  With a charcoal fire you can have a reducing fire, meaning that you will not oxidize the iron in the process

 

Maybe you do not need a special technology to have small amounts of charcoal, you can find it in the embers of a wood fire. But in order to have it in sufficient quantities to start forging on a medium to large scale, you will have to start making charcoal on purpose, which means already a new technology.

[Turtle]

You simply prove my point !

 

Oooooo....it was my first time too. :)

 

There is a huge difference between a wood fire and a charcoal fire (even if not driven by bellows).

 

Now think a minute...what is required to smelt bronze? ;)

 

Another thought, is maybe the collapse was due to running out of copper? Where did they get their copper?

 

The bronze age was connected to metallurgy with copper and zinc to make brass and bronze. Copper can be found in nature already as the metal. There are still huge clumps in upper Michigan...

 

Yes indeed! I've heard some anthropologists say Egyptian artifacts (especially copper ingots) have been found in the US at just such copper deposits/mines. If copper was running out in the Middle East, then only those with access elsewhere would have a supply; cultures who developed a dependence on bronze and ran out of supply with no substitute would start suffering/declining. :(

[Pyrotex]

I was under the impression that the Bronze Age Collapse (good name!) took place at about the same time as the devastating volcanic explosion in the Eastern Mediterranean, 1628 BC, called Thera:

 

"This seismic activity culminated in a series of enormous and catastrophic volcanic explosions on Thera (sometimes called Santorini), a small island some 100km to the north of Crete. The scale of these explosions is difficult to imagine, but they appear to have been many times greater that the enormous Krakatoa volcano explosion in 1883."

 

This quote was obtained from this site, about 2/3 of the way down. The site is a treasure trove of archeological data, including pictures of pottery and paintings of the eras leading up to and following the Bronze Age Collapse.

 

Krakatoa in Indonesia has been estimated at about the equivalent of around half a megaton nuclear explosion going off 200 meters below the sea surface. :(

 

If Santorini was a dozen times greater... :) ;) :doh: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

 

Here is another ancient history site. Scroll down about 1/4 of the webpage, looking for the words "Late Bronze Age".

 

Here is a map of what is left of the Santorini caldera.

[Turtle]

I was under the impression that the Bronze Age Collapse (good name!) took place at about the same time as the devastating volcanic explosion in the Eastern Mediterranean, 1628 BC, called Thera:

 

"This seismic activity culminated in a series of enormous and catastrophic volcanic explosions on Thera (sometimes called Santorini), a small island some 100km to the north of Crete. The scale of these explosions is difficult to imagine, but they appear to have been many times greater that the enormous Krakatoa volcano explosion in 1883."

 

...Here is a map of what is left of the Santorini caldera.

 

Good points Pirot! Taking up with that I recall a recent program & my post(s) on it wherin the Naked Arcaeologist, Simcha Jacobovici, attributes the events of the biblical exodus to the eruption of Thera. >>

 

I watched an interesting show on one of the science channels called The Naked Archaeologist wherin the author, Simcha Jacobovici, followed a string of archaeological clues relating to the book of Exodus. He correlated all the events to the eruption of Santorini in 1800 BCE, from all the plauges to the parting of the sea. He translated the name of the sea that was parted to the Sea of Reeds and located ruins on a mountain different than the one commonly considered Sinai.

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/3279-bibles-historical-record-4.html

 

Then I seem to recall Moses & Aaron spent the next 40 years hacking their way through the men, women, and children of the people living in the ancient middle east, yes? Perhaps this precipitated the two-or-so-generation collapse Boerseun has us discussing. :) ;) :(

[Pyrotex]

Good points Pirot! ...Then I seem to recall Moses & Aaron spent the next 40 years hacking their way through the men, women, and children of the people living in the ancient middle east, yes? Perhaps this precipitated the two-or-so-generation collapse Boerseun has us discussing.

Maybe and maybe not. :(

 

Some folks place the Exodus at a different time, maybe as early as 1800 BC. It's hard to tell because the Egyptians did not (to my knowledge) document the exodus of the Hebrews or the death of a pharoah in a sea that was temporarily parted, or a host of plagues, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

Assuming the Hebrews did leave Egypt, it is generally clear that their numbers were small. I've seen modern OT analyses that indicate the Hebrews typically exaggerated their population in the OT by a factor of 3, 5, or more. I forget how they justified this, so take it with AGOS. Perhaps the analysis was based on finding the ruins of the villages and estimating pop size from that. :)

 

The total time required by the Hebrews to carve out their (rather tiny) empire was probably more than 2 generations, but fewer than 10. So, there is some chance that the Santorini episode and the Hebrew "carving" may have overlapped.

[Turtle]

Maybe and maybe not. :)

 

Some folks place the Exodus at a different time, maybe as early as 1800 BC.

Jacobovici, the Naked Archaeologist, is one such; I seem to recall he made quite a point of that date. He may have used geological evidence to make that the Thera eruption date as well; damn I wish I had recorded it. I'll look to see if it's one of the "on demand' shows. :eek:

It's hard to tell because the Egyptians did not (to my knowledge) document the exodus of the Hebrews or the death of a pharoah in a sea that was temporarily parted, or a host of plagues, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

Ay, there's the rub. Again, I think Jacobovici shows just such evidence.

 

Assuming the Hebrews did leave Egypt, it is generally clear that their numbers were small. I've seen modern OT analyses that indicate the Hebrews typically exaggerated their population in the OT by a factor of 3, 5, or more. I forget how they justified this, so take it with AGOS. Perhaps the analysis was based on finding the ruins of the villages and estimating pop size from that. ;)

 

I admit to some facetiousness myself in over-estimating the importance of the Hebrews in the collapse of the old middle east cultures. :doh: I take my grains of salt from Lot's wife. :eek: :eek: :D :eek: :(

[LaurieAG]

Maybe you do not need a special technology to have small amounts of charcoal, you can find it in the embers of a wood fire. But in order to have it in sufficient quantities to start forging on a medium to large scale, you will have to start making charcoal on purpose, which means already a new technology.

 

Hello Eric,

 

Unless you have quite a large meteorite you only forge small amounts, say enough for one superior sword or dagger. I have seen references to this practice in several books on ancient mesopotamia and other middle eastern areas. The arabs (and even the pre Israelites) collected the pieces of rare and valuable metal when they were out herding in the desert. In ancient times (probably pre charcoal forging times) these space rocks were often carried into battle on the leading camel as a form of tribal 'symbol'.

[LaurieAG]

Then I seem to recall Moses & Aaron spent the next 40 years hacking their way through the men, women, and children of the people living in the ancient middle east, yes? Perhaps this precipitated the two-or-so-generation collapse Boerseun has us discussing.

 

Hello Turtle, good point,

 

The 40 years in the wilderness was after the battles, and all weren't killed. It was intended that 40 years would pass to allow those with blood on their hands to die. The old testament talks about the methods used for subjugation. i.e. surround your enemies city and ask them to surrender in 'peace', if they open the gates they are your slaves (probably vassals) forever, if they don't kill all.

[Freddy]

The bronze age was connected to metallurgy with copper and zinc to make brass and bronze. Copper can be found in nature already as the metal. There are still huge clumps in upper Michigan. These two metals and their alloys can be smelted in a wood fire. To make iron required using coal for the higher melting temperature. Early iron weapons trials were not reliable steel but contained impurities, making the weapons less reliable in comparision to refined bronze. Once they learned how to add the right amount of C to burn off the O impurities to make C-steel, the rest is history, i.e., Iron Age. A good iron sword would bend the bronze sword, making it much less affective in battle.

Copper and tin were the metals first known as the alloy, bronze.

From Wikipedia:

 

"But the Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age, perhaps because the shipping of tin around the Mediterranean (or from Great Britain) became more limited during the major population migrations around 1200 – 1100 BC, which dramatically limited supplies and raised prices."

[ErlyRisa]

is this a question about the tranistion of civilisation switching to hrder to work with metals, or just about the middleastern empires?

 

--because the vikings and brits were using iron pretty darn early too.

 

as for the demise of the empire that was the persians and syrians around the times -- they love killing each other!!, just like today I guess... sunni and shite anyone? , paki and indi?

 

--the closer you go to a more traversally viable region (mediteranean), the higher probabilty for dominating diverse culture (greeks, romans, Turks(trinity)) , and since these cultures had eaier access to forestreal surroundings (europe) thier mainstay was set in concrete.... the only reason the persians are still around today(pretty much as they were 500+ yrs ago) - no-one could be bothered visiting them. (colonisation) ... I wonder if we will be successfull today?