Guantanamo Bay: Shame on you, United States

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Michael Angelo actually lives in NORTH SYDNEY - one of the upper class suburbs of Australia. (and I am pretty sure he spots a beard)

You can't expect more from inner city twits - I'm sure it's the same in every country around the world.

What's wrong with beards!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I've got one and I'm not a hippy, or a yuppy (the proper term for an affluent hippy)....Besides women love em (beards)!!!!

 

 

 

I am talking about Rambo. The new movie. -but for some reason I don't think any of you cafe late sippers are going to watch that, for some reason you will stay in your warm blanketted Susan Sarandon Green Day veil of agreenment, and it doesn't matter how much any one outside of the clic tries to highlight your collective mind's plight.

Aaaah the new Rambo.....big friggin wup! Yet another example of how lazy, uninspired, and complacent we have become. It's a sad state of affairs when the world capital of entertainment can only manage to rehash the same ol crap over and over rather than to invest effort and create new material. It seems that in general Americans are averse to effort in any form if there is an easy "out" available these days.:Glasses:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

You can't expect more from inner city twits - I'm sure it's the same in every country around the world.

Also ^:Glasses:

 

Michael Angelo actually lives in NORTH SYDNEY - one of the upper class suburbs of Australia. (and I am pretty sure he spots a beard)

Suburbs are hardly the same thing as "inner city" (here in the states anyway).

 

Also what the 7734 do locale and beards have to do with anyones political, social, or moral beliefs?

[modest]

It's a sad state of affairs when the world capital of entertainment can only manage to rehash the same ol crap over and over rather than to invest effort and create new material. It seems that in general Americans are averse to effort in any form if there is an easy "out" available these days.:)

 

Some just can't handle new information and ideas:

 

Study finds liberal-conservative difference in brain functioning

 

Using a classic experimental paradigm, they found that liberals were more open to new information, whereas conservatives were more likely to block potentially distracting information:

 

Imagine how much of the world you have to block out until Jane Fonda becomes your biggest concern :doh:

 

-modest

[REASON]

Study finds liberal-conservative difference in brain functioning

 

Earlier, in post #108, questor implied that being liberal is illogical. While I generally believe that there is nothing inherently wrong with having either a liberal or conservative mindset, to suggest that liberalism is illogical is counter intuitive.

 

As I see it, the basic definitions of liberal and conservative are:

 

Liberal - Open to change.

Conservative - Resistant to change.

 

Since change is inevitable, resisting that which is inevitable is what would seem to be illogical. Particularly when change yields improvement.

 

Ultimately, it's of no consequence. Liberalism and conservatism should be counterbalancing forces in a human effort to produce policy that is in the overall benefit of society, not as mindsets used to demonize and ridicule those with opposing views for the sake of ultimate control.

 

 

Imagine how much of the world you have to block out until Jane Fonda becomes your biggest concern :doh:

 

-modest

 

:)

 

Actually, Jane Fonda is code speak for liberals. It is liberals in general that are the concern in their minds. In many cases, it goes both ways, but liberal minded people are typically more tolerant of those that are different.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Liberal.... Conservative:thumbsdown:

Republican:thumbsdown:

 

I'll stick with Libertarian:) and the occassional Democrat that shows promise (Ie. Clinton. Imagine how much more that could have been accomplished during his presidency had he been able to focus on running the country instead of dealing with the friggin sex scandal.).

 

Is there any hope of this thread getting back on topic?

 

Mainly how wrong it is to imprison and torture persons...especially when you're a nation that has a long standing reputation of being against such actions. And why Americans should be embarased and outraged at our govt's. actions as well as the lack of public outcry against said actions.:doh:

[modest]

Actually, Jane Fonda is code speak for liberals. It is liberals in general that are the concern in their minds.

 

Well, yeah. I did think it rather incredible that ErlyRisa went on and on about Jane Fonda in a thread concerned with topics such as torture. But you are right - any liberal that can be thrown on the fire will do.

 

If you listen to Limbaugh it is his usual tactic to avoid a topic. Flag-burning and gay-marriage are code for "There is a serious problem afoot that I don't have the slightest inkling how to solve - someone might point the finger at us - so let's focus on Jane Fonda, flag-burning, gay-marriage, etc". I suppose the same could be said for neocon policy.

 

The sad thing is how the tactic works - look how far off topic I am right now.

 

-modest

[REASON]

The sad thing is how the tactic works - look how far off topic I am right now.

 

-modest

 

In my estimation, it's not really that far off topic. It's part of an overall climate of refusing to address harsh realities and taking defensive positions when there is dissent or criticism of destructive policy as DD referred to when he mentioned the lack of public outcry regarding torture. Especially when it is the pseudo-conservative Neo-Con element of our government that is fostering this bad policy.

 

Fortunately, we're not doing that here, even if we strayed a bit.

[ErlyRisa]

I would have to say (with regard to liberal conservative)

 

that it's right on topic... it comes to the heart of the issue.

 

The real issue isn't about YOUR opinion, it's about how much you adhere to PUBLIC opinion.

 

...and I am sorry to say but those that have the mass opinion that anything US is bad (just look at the keywords at the bottom of the page) are actually conservative in mind. The sad part is that the level at which they suffer from Doublethink has gotten so bad that they believe that they are thinking liberally.

 

In my life I have only met a few right wing absolute conservatives (though I have heard that their are alot more of them in the US - and so their should, it keeps the world in balance. The small proportion of right wing nut jobs vs. the majority vocal proprtion of lefties on the rest of the planet is what help propagate what we believe to be freedom of opinion).

In my experience it's the leftists that cannot adhere to any change what so ever. I can cite the recent government change here in Australia. Most people that voted weren't the working class that were looking forward to barter with thier boss about being able to work in teams or only on weekends. It was the Yuppy class that couldn't handle the fact that they would actually have to work in the office and can't just loiter around at the drink fountain anymore. It was those that couldn't handle seeing a government that was more forward and honest about THEIR LEFTIST POLICY than their usual hammer and sickle party which is better at FEEDING policy and keeping the populous veilied in a cloak of jovial exuberance with each NEW POLICY. It was those that still - after 30 years of constant badgering via the media, can't understand that in a free economy the government is NOT SUPPOSED to be able to control interest rates. (the commercial of an Aerobics concerned mother talking about the interest rates is one of the main election winning vectors)

 

After the day of the election in Australia I swear to god, the streets were full of pram pushers... it's like the Aerobics mums felt as though they were now safe in the streets!!! I went to the shops, the ethnic attendant was gleeful and actually conversed with the customers. -these people in their hearts actually beleive that in under 12 hours that the country went back intime to before it was under right wing "domination" (accentuate with Arnie's voice). -Now that's being ultra conservative in mind... you can even time travel.

 

The conservatives though after the election (and sisnce it was just before Xmas)), went liberal with their own budgets. Plasma panel purchases sky rocketed while mummy made sure she had another set of shoes and handbag.

 

I think that when it comes to being Liberal you have to be conservative, and vie versa...

eg. Gun policy.

You have to be liberal in thought to understand the principal in having the freedom to choose anything. Yet -you will be labeled conservative. Your very conservative in order to be able to bypass any and all logic to always come back to the one conserved point. (X are bad, and if I don't like them, no one should)

 

I would rather re-work the meanings of Liberalism and Conservatism...

 

Conservatism is when you "conserve" the opinion of the masses and have the feeling that YOUR opinion NEEDS to be applied in order to conserve a state for society that YOU want. In effect your a mini cloud of Gestapism. These people in Europe were called the "Raw (uncooked) workers"

Liberalism is when you "liberally" apply and re-apply thought, until you have made up your OWN opinion, even if it means that the conclusion equates to the status quo. (something that Liberals cannot do... in their guts they cannot live without tweaking something - current states are always wrong to them) These people are labeled "the Bosses/Capitalists/Natzis/Fascist" by the new western Raw Worker. (unknowingly that they are infact the biggest Nazis of all)

 

I propose a new term for all so called Liberals.... and leave the words Conservative and Liberal un-adultered.

Opinion Gestapo.

 

Hanoi Jane - Google Search

 

Nobe Peace Prize... Kissinger, Kofi, amongst others, the irony can be astounding.

[Michaelangelica]

 

Ohh I am sorry for ranting....

 

Good. but how do we get you to stop?

 

And stop quoting your own "research" sic as facts?

 

You are ranting rubbish and you have the hide to criticise the shock-jocks of 2GB!

You should apply for a job there.

[questor]

Modest, if you think Buffy has answered my simple question about torture, what do you perceive the answer to be? All I see is the reference to experts

saying that torture is not effective. What is effective, and what would YOU do in the example I gave? If there is no attempt to extract intelligence, why take prisoners at all? Why not just return them to the battlefield? We are agreed that torture is not civilized, what is the alternative in emergency situations? I notice that some people have difficulty in answering hard, real life questions.

[questor]

I notice that someone posted a link which supports my recent post on ''Brain

Wiring'' which garnered a considerable amount of flak from certain nay sayers

on Hypography. More research will be done on this subject, but enough information has been published to lend weight to my opinions. The link is:

Psyche, Science, and Society » Study finds liberal-conservative difference in brain functioning

Since this subject has an important bearing on qualifications neccessary for

optimum leadership on a national level, I will open a new thread concerning

this titled, Qualifications For National Leadrship

[InfiniteNow]

I notice that someone posted a link which supports my recent post on ''Brain Wiring'' which garnered a considerable amount of flak from certain nay sayers on Hypography. More research will be done on this subject, but enough information has been published to lend weight to my opinions. The link is:

Psyche, Science, and Society » Study finds liberal-conservative difference in brain functioning

 

If I recall correctly, your post on brain wiring suggested that hemispherical dominance results in the sociopolitical ideology chosen by the citizen, and that "left brained" people were on one side of our *supposed* political spectrum and "right brained" people on the other. However, this was a simple and undefined statement regarding cortical lateralization, one that contradicts existing evidence to the contrary. Further, the story above does not support any of those assertions you made (if you feel I am mistaken, I welcome you're clarifying and pointing out where). It appears you've misinterpreted the message of that article. I advise you read it more closely. :cup:

 

 

Using a classic experimental paradigm, they found that liberals were more open to new information, whereas conservatives were more likely to block potentially distracting information.

 

 

And... as always, you should look at the actual study, not just the media hype which summarizes it in laymen's terms and "sexes it up" to gain readership:

 

 

Neurocognitive correlates of liberalism and conservatism : Abstract : Nature Neuroscience

 

Political scientists and psychologists have noted that, on average, conservatives show more structured and persistent cognitive styles, whereas liberals are more responsive to informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty. We tested the hypothesis that these profiles relate to differences in general neurocognitive functioning using event-related potentials, and found that greater liberalism was associated with stronger conflict-related anterior cingulate activity, suggesting greater neurocognitive sensitivity to cues for altering a habitual response pattern.

 

 

As you can clearly see, NOTHING about lateralization or hemispherical dominance.

 

 

 

 

Also... a polite request, knowing you are a gentleman... Please look up the concept of the strawman fallacy and attempt to prevent yourself from further engaging in it. This is reference to post #129 and many that came before in this thread and others. Thank you, questor. Please enjoy your day. :)

[modest]

Modest, if you think Buffy has answered my simple question about torture, what do you perceive the answer to be?

 

Military interrogation experts (we're not talking about the ACLU here or any of your other bete noires) will tell you you are not going to get truthful or accurate information if you torture him.

 

All I see is the reference to experts saying that torture is not effective.

 

You had the answer all along.

 

What is effective, and what would YOU do in the example I gave?

 

I don't know what their exact methods are - I'm not an expert. But the experts do disagree with you questor.

 

 

If there is no attempt to extract intelligence, why take prisoners at all?

 

The point everyone keeps making questor, is that "extracting intelligence" is not synonymous with torture (at least it damn well shouldn't be in America). The experts in interrogation do have methods that work and don't involve 'torture' or 'punishment' or 'rendition'. Please see the links I gave on this earlier.

 

No - the point of taking prisoners isn't to torture them.

 

I notice that some people have difficulty in answering hard, real life questions.

 

No one is having trouble answering your question. It has been answered upwards of 5 times now.

 

-modest

[modest]

And... as always, you should look at the actual study, not just the media hype which summarizes it in laymen's terms and "sexes it up" to gain readership:

 

InfiniteNow is absolutely right. I seriously erred in posting that link for the following reasons, if not more:

 

• The link points to an article referencing an article referencing a study. Some of the integrity of the study has obviously been washed away and replaced by whatever motivations and/or bias the media authors had.
  
• Of all the wrong places to put a link to that study - this thread would be it. The topic here has obviously brought out political differences among members and this article would only serve to point out those differences - and that’s not helpful.
  
• What I said with the link was really meant to be funny or at least satirical. But, the implications that article brings (either founded or not) are obviously too serious to go with my glib statement.
  
• And of course, it’s wildly off topic.
  

 

Sorry,

 

-modest

[CraigD]

Study finds liberal-conservative difference in brain functioning

I notice that someone posted a link which supports my recent post on ''Brain

Wiring'' which garnered a considerable amount of flak from certain nay sayers

on Hypography.

If I recall correctly, your post on brain wiring suggested that hemispherical dominance results in the sociopolitical ideology chosen by the citizen, and that "left brained" people were on one side of our *supposed* political spectrum and "right brained" people on the other. However, this was a simple and undefined statement regarding cortical lateralization, one that contradicts existing evidence to the contrary. Further, the story above does not support any of those assertions you made (if you feel I am mistaken, I welcome you're clarifying and pointing out where). It appears you've misinterpreted the message of that article. I advise you read it more closely.

….

And... as always, you should look at the actual study, not just the media hype which summarizes it in laymen's terms and "sexes it up" to gain readership

…

As you can clearly see, NOTHING about lateralization or hemispherical dominance.

InfiniteNow is absolutely right. I seriously erred in posting that link for the following reasons, if not more

I agree. This interesting discussion would be better continued, I think, back in the “Brain Wiring” thread. I made this post there. (teaser: It has subscription-free links to Amodio et al’s papers :cup:)

[Michaelangelica]

The Brits were clever about extracting information from prisoners during the war.(WW2)

For starters they had a huge data base of information. Every bit of information about every German soldier they collected and filed.

If someone was captured they would be kind and welcoming and ask Questions like "How is your dog Fluffy" or "How is you wife going in the new flat?" very trivial bits of information but they gave the prisoner the impression that they knew everything so they might as well talk.

 

I wonder if someone is co-coordinating this information gathering in the FBI, CIA,Interpol NSA, NCIS, etc in the States. They certainly weren't doing it prior to 9/11.

Perhaps this is too difficult when you don't know who your friends or enemies are.

 

Despite the fear, I believe that the end does not justify the means. So torture is out. It demeans, depersonalises and destroys both the person receiving it and the person giving it.

[questor]

It seems like no one here wants to deal with my question. Let me ask it again.

''for all your attempts at trying to qualify my question about torture, I'm trying to make it very simple. You have a prisoner that you are absolutely certain knows information that will save a substantial number of innocent lives. What do you do to extract this information (within a three day time period )This is a bottom line question.'' parens added

Possible answers-

1. I will not torture under any circumstances. The twenty innocent people will have to die.

2. twenty people are worth more than one terrorist, I will use any means neccessary to get information.

3. I will use humane interrogation methods such as----? If these do not work, the innocents will have to die.

4. this is a difficult question and I do not care to confront the situation.