Guantanamo Bay: Shame on you, United States

[questor]

You America haters are right! It is America's fault that the world is in such bad shape! We have too much money that we won't share with others, and our standard of living is too high. We don't give enough blood and money to those who want it. We should be ashamed and many of us do have a deep and abiding guilt about the way we have always mistreated the world and our own citizens who prefer not to work. America should be destroyed and all who live here should lower their standard of living to be equal with the rest of the world. If one should suffer, why not all should suffer? We are faced with the possibility of electing a new president who will attempt to remedy this situation by eliminating the wealthy class and corporations by heavy taxation, political correctness, and installing a more fair socialist economic system which will reward indolence and punish productivity. It will be a good lesson to learn as one of these totally unqualified people takes over the socialization of our horrible capitalistic society which has produced far too much freedom and far too many successful people of all races. The two leading Democrat candidates have never run a business, had a payroll, managed a corporation, know little about economics or foreign affairs, yet they, as well as many of our citizens are convinced, they can manage the largest business in the world. America does not need help to destroy itself, we are perfectly capable of doing the job ourself. Watch over the next decade as we allow further invasion by illegal immigrants looking for jobs while we have no jobs, businesses are over-taxed causing them to further outsource employment, our educational system continues to deteriorate

and political correctness rules the land, eliminating free speech and promising that we will not encourage the ascent of the meritorius, but try to always keep the playing field ''level''. For those of you who hate America, just give us a few years, my only hope is some of you may defend us in future wars when we are attacked and maybe even send some aid back to us.

[Zythryn]

You America haters are right! It is America's fault that the world is in such bad shape! ...

What a transparent attempt at a straw-man this is Questor.

No one that I recall mentioned they hate America and no one has stated it is America's fault that the world is in 'such bad shape'.

At worst, people have implied or stated it is the current administrations fault that AMERICA (not the world) is in such bad shape.

 

Your entire diatribe is full of faulty statements and generalities.

As for eliminating free speach, look to our current administration, they are doing a fine job of that on their own.

[Buffy]

The two leading Democrat candidates have never run a business, had a payroll, managed a corporation, know little about economics or foreign affairs, yet they, as well as many of our citizens are convinced, they can manage the largest business in the world.

Neither did JFK or Ronald Reagan, and of course every business our current president ran, he ran into the ground! I don't see how this issue disqualifies anyone, but it sure is an interesting object lesson in the level of political debate that has taken America by storm...

and promising that we will not encourage the ascent of the meritorius, but try to always keep the playing field ''level''.

...and another: note the implication that these "minorities" got to where they are not by merit but were "less capable" .

 

So much for the American value that anyone can grow up to be president...looks like for some it can only be a white, male, Protestant CEO.

 

It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, :fly:

Buffy

[Boerseun]

You America haters are right! It is America's fault that the world is in such bad shape!

...etc

...etc

...etc

Sheesh...

 

Talk about missing the point completely.

 

You have missed the point so far that I think you and the point under discussion exist in totally different dimensions.

 

Oh well.

[Zythryn]

It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, :fly:

Buffy

 

 

Love the quote, is it Shakespeare??

[Buffy]

Love the quote, is it Shakespeare??

 

You knew that Shakespeare was a liberal, Islamofacist, Feminazi, America-hater, right?

 

And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death, :fly:

Buffy

[REASON]

Ah.....don't be too hard on questor, these aren't even his talking points. He's just reciting all the generic little quibbling points that he collects from the partisan mis-information machine that relies on emotional appeal rather than rational, critical thinking.....Conservative Talk Radio.

 

Believing that anyone, domestic or otherwise, that criticises our government for whom they voted, therefore "hates" America, is simply buying into an emotional appeal as a way of avoiding the primary issue. Note that questor has essentially avoided the discusson relating to this thread, but instead has used it to stand on his soap box and rant his borrowed talking points.....most of which are inflamatory, unsubstantiated, mischaracterized, and overly dramatic. This may work on his inner circle of friends, but it is an error in judgement to think this type of appeal will work in a world-wide community of highly rational, and critical thinkers like you find here at Hypography.

 

So why don't you answer this question directly, questor:

 

Do you believe that hauling in, or paying for, suspects, labeling them as "enemy combatants," holding them without charges, subjecting them to cruel and unusual treatment including practices that have been long recognized as torture, using secret evidence against them, refusing them the right of habeas corpus, and killing them in some instances, is good policy for the United States of America?

 

Is it consistant with our Constitution, the rule-of-law, or the values that we would like to promote throughout the world?

 

Can you recognize that it is not without compromising your loyalty to your political party?

 

Would you defend these practices so vehemently if it were the policy of the William Jefferson Clinton administration?

 

I seriously doubt it.

[modest]

In 1998 I saw a little Asian man standing in front of a big Asian tank. My patriotism was stirred by the very sentiment of American spirit. So where is this fella now? Sharing some prison cell with a Christian fundamentalist? Already executed? Who knows - China is not very open about its denial of human rights. One thing is certain:

 

I used to speak with authority in condemning such behavior. I was proud to be an example against this kind of wholesale denial of human rights.

 

America was better than Saddam who tortured POWs in the first gulf war. Better than Iran during the Iranian revolution. Better than the Columbian FARC. Not only could we condemn cruelty against Americans as in these examples - but we could demand of leaders around the world to stop mistreating their own. This was more than good - it was useful. Now what?

 

My feeling of pride has been counterfeited and replaced by shame. The title of this thread couldn’t be better worded because its true. It’s shameful. And if the US had the right to demand other countries follow the Geneva convention before Bush then the rest of the world should have the right to demand it of us now.

 

So go ahead mike, keep demanding we shape up. People will tell you to mind your own business. What’s that if not shame? I say, what goes around comes around.

 

-modest

[questor]

The replies to my post show quite clearly that there are at least two Americas in many respects. I have never in any post advocated the use of torture, nor do any of my friends, but it seems that certain mind-sets can only view people through a narrow prism of pre-conceived ideas demanding that all people of certain groups are always guilty of thinking the same way. Due to their inability to process data, if one disagrees with them, then they must be guilty of a set group of offensive thought patterns: including racism, no respect for minorities, unfairness, elitism and being one of the Americans one must hate to be in synch with liberal sycophants. These ideas have all coalesced into an unreasoning hatred toward G. Bush and anyone one else who would espouse conservatism. It is interesting to note that the knee jerkers have already started to formulate their attack upon a fellow American and slyly start the character assassination with the intimation of racism, even though I mentioned nothing at all derogatory about race, and the implication that I stand for torture even though I have said I do not. Thus it is in the USA today. As I said, the rest of the world can stand by and watch

Americans tear up their own culture and society. Instead of arguing with me over the truth or essence of my statements, character assassination and untruths take precedence. America is indeed headed for great changes for the worst and those causing the changes cannot see the damage being done.

[Buffy]

America is indeed headed for great changes for the worst and those causing the changes cannot see the damage being done.

Oh I agree with this absolutely, except its already happened, and that's the point of this thread.

 

If you're against torture, then it would seem from the previous posts that you subscribe to the Bush Administration's course of "redefining torture," and then removing it from public debate by calling all information about it a National Security issue so that anyone wanting to discuss what is allowable or not allowable can be branded a traitor. This is the height of intellectual dishonesty, whose only justification is the argument that one should simply "just trust" whoever is the Commander-In-Chief.

 

That would be great, except you just said that you *will not* trust *any* Democrat, and that they are sure to "bring down America." How is this not painfully hypocritical?

 

You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it, :)

Buffy

[modest]

questor,

 

I do not think this issue is one of "two americas" and I do not "espouse conservatism". This issue of torture goes beyond that. Consider our previous conservative presidents:

 

A quote from George H.W. Bush (senior). Is he talking about Saddam or his son?

 

"I knew there was a danger I might overreact to what I heard and read. I'd tell myself to calm down, not to let these human rights abuses--bitter and ugly as they were, with medieval torture--cause me to do something hasty or make a foolish decision. Yet at some point it came through to me that this was not a matter of shades of gray, or of trying to see the other side's point of view. It was good versus evil, right versus wrong. I am sure the change strengthened my determination not to let the invasion stand"

- George Bush, A World Transformed (1998), pp. 374-75

 

And a quote from Ronald Reagan whose legacy is being torn down as we speak:

 

"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiations of the Convention [Against Torture]. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today,"

-president Ronald Reagan, 1988.

 

Notice Reagan's assertion that not only torture, but "other inhuman treatment or punishment" are "abhorrent".

 

As George Bush said, it is a matter of good versus evil - not liberal versus conservative.

 

-modest

[InfiniteNow]

As George Bush said, it is a matter of good versus evil - not liberal versus conservative.

 

There are far too many people today who have been conditioned so thoroughly as to no longer be able to tell the difference. :)

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

In 1998 I saw a little Asian man standing in front of a big Asian tank. My patriotism was stirred by the very sentiment of American spirit. So where is this fella now? Sharing some prison cell with a Christian fundamentalist? Already executed? Who knows - China is not very open about its denial of human rights.

-modest

Sad thing is there are none (or very very few) like him left in America.

 

I won't make any excuses for myself...quite frankly people scare me as it is and I'd rather not give them reason to give me real reasons to fear them.

[questor]

Why are we fixated upon reports of torture at Gitmo as the world is starting to disintegrate? Torture is wrong if carried out by anybody. Are we to assume that piling naked bodies in a a hallway or threatening prisoners with a dog or waterboarding ( without death) is worse than cutting off limbs and beheading? Why are not America's critics up in arms about the jihadists treatment of their prisoners? Where are the pictures of jihadists prison cells? of the murder of females who attempt to go to school, of the torture chambers where hundreds of innocent civilians have been murdered, of the constant barbarity of the suicide bombings killing innocents? They barely rate mention, while the haters are still incensed over Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

It seems to me that the scales have been tipped by the America haters so that we are always wrong and the other side gets a pass. If you spent as much time and energy berating the true killers and demanding proper news

coverage from the New York Times, perhaps America would not look so bad.

I am not a suporter of Bush in all matters. He has failed to act as a conservative fiscally and failed to use common sense on more than one occasion, however, he has been steadfast in his conduct ofthe war and we have had no further attacks. This does not excuse his inability to carry on productive foreign relations or lack of good public relations.

As far as the coming election, it may be noted that America is in a precipitous recession. As you may see, there have been fewer pronouncements from the comedy team of Reid and Pelosi. When the going gets tough, the Dems get going--like rats leaving a sinking ship. You'll notice that neither they nor the Dem candidates have much to say when there are serious troubles. The reason is that some problems can't be solved by forming commissions and throwing more money away. Are we seriously considering electing a candidate who has zero business experience to see us through a recession and finish the war? Are we to believe it is more important to have a female or minority candidate as president than it is to have competent leadership? Why not list the accomplishments and positions of each candidate and then pick the best person for the job?

[Zythryn]

Are we seriously considering electing a candidate who has zero business experience to see us through a recession and finish the war?

 

Why not, we elected a businessman that governed businesses that failed and dodged his service to his country to get us into both a war and a recession.

 

I would far rather elect someone that is good at governing than someone that comes across as a nice guy to the public. Unfortunately modern elections are turning into little more than popularity contests.

[freeztar]

Are we to believe it is more important to have a female or minority candidate as president than it is to have competent leadership?

 

Your statement implies that female or minority candidates cannot be competent leaders. :)

[Boerseun]

Why are we fixated upon reports of torture at Gitmo as the world is starting to disintegrate?

'Coz the thread's about that particular topic. Not about the world disintegrating, or about Al Qaida.

Torture is wrong if carried out by anybody. Are we to assume that piling naked bodies in a a hallway or threatening prisoners with a dog or waterboarding ( without death) is worse than cutting off limbs and beheading?

Wot? Is non-lethal torture morally defensible all of a sudden? Only 'coz it's the Nice! Family Friendly! version?

Why are not America's critics up in arms about the jihadists treatment of their prisoners?

Because that's what we came to expect of them over the years. Their torture cells and practices is not right, nor moral. Not in the least. But it's not surprising. What is surprising, however, is being witness to the US of A following suit. These barbaric practices isn't what we have come to expect over the years from the United States, which prides itself on its devotion to Freedom, Human Rights and its moral high ground following the two World Wars. That is very surprising, and certainly discussion-worthy. What is also surprising is how American citizens like yourself, not in the least connected to any of these practices, try to ignore their existence and to sweep it under the rug. Almost like you find out your husband's molesting your child. Pretending it doesn't exist helps neither the victim nor the perpetrator.

Where are the pictures of jihadists prison cells? of the murder of females who attempt to go to school, of the torture chambers where hundreds of innocent civilians have been murdered, of the constant barbarity of the suicide bombings killing innocents? They barely rate mention, while the haters are still incensed over Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

We all know that it happens, and that it exists on their side. But once again, that's not what this thread's about. But hang on, wait a minute... Are you trying to tell me that their abuses and violations justifies yours? Yep. That's exactly what you're trying to tell me. And if that's the case, and that's your point of departure, then the terrorists have won. Civilization just went down the tubes. End of story. The thing is, everybody's incensed about the US' actions regarding Gitmo and the like, because the US is better than that. Get it? Trying to defend it the way you currently are, is double standards to the n'th degree. If you can justify it in your own mind, then you're not a civilized person. Civilization and all it entails have been wasted on you for your entire life up to this point so far.

It seems to me that the scales have been tipped by the America haters so that we are always wrong and the other side gets a pass. If you spent as much time and energy berating the true killers and demanding proper news coverage from the New York Times, perhaps America would not look so bad.

...the true killers? Whazzat? We all know that the terrorists are really bad, evil and mean people. There's no discussion about it. But if you sink to their level, and abuse human rights and ignore sovereignty, and on and on and on, none of what you do can be bad, because you're not the true killers?

You just made me fall out my chair.

Nice.

This does not excuse his inability to carry on productive foreign relations or lack of good public relations...

All fair and valid criticisms of your current administration, which you are willing to accept. But why is it so impossible for you to also criticise the current administration on much worse issues on a much bigger scale, like the abuses at Gitmo and Abu Graig? Is it maybe because you're so shocked to find out about the moral shortcomings of the US government that you'd rather close your eyes to it and pretend it never happened, or that it might happen, but it's not so bad seeing as the other guys are doing it, too?

Are we to believe it is more important to have a female or minority candidate as president than it is to have competent leadership? Why not list the accomplishments and positions of each candidate and then pick the best person for the job?

Showing your true colours, now. Clinton and Obama is right up there, because they have the support (Oh my God - AMONGST YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS). So, now you don't want to see a black man or a woman as president, you'd rather have 'competent leadership'? And then you say we should 'pick the best person for the job'? You already discount Clinton and Obama as 'the best persons for the job' simply because the one is from a minority community and the other is a female.

So, regarding the thread topic, not only is your moral compass so completely screwed that it's amazing you can actually find your way to your computer, but you're a sexist and a racist to boot? Spare me.