Environmental Study Of Lechtenberg Park

[freeztar]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! We have 2 different plants under discussion here. The plant in the foliage photo is not the plant the limb scan came from.

 

To clarify, the plant in the foliage photo is still unidentified, even though I previously speculated that it was Live Oak. I agrree with you now, that it is not Live Oak.

 

The scan of the cut branch however, I have identified as Garry Oak (also called Oregon White Oak) from examining the pattern of wood and comparing it to identified samples ,as well as considering the vicinity I took it from. I can scan again at 1200 dpi for more detail, however to properly prepare the sample, progressively finer grits of sandpaper are required.

 

;) My bad, I misread the post. No wonder I was so thrown off by the suggestion. ;)

 

PS The discussion in the link you give begins with a misnomer, wherin they say:

 

[...]

 

Heartwood is a term that applies to the inner and older 'core' of a tree, and sapwood the outer rest of the tree, but neither apply to the differentiation between two types of wood found in a single year's growth. Typically, heartwood is darker and denser than sapwood for any given species.

 

What you say is correct, but I fear you misread the question. ;)

Here is the original question (full quote) for reference:

“I'm presently trying to discern sapwood depth and annual growth increments from cottonwood cores. Can anyone advise me of reliable methods to distinguish the sapwood-heartwood and ring boundaries in these samples?”

 

I suspect this is a student at a uni. What he/she is trying "to discern" is most likely his/her assignment.

The way I read it is that they wanted to know the sapwood/heartwood boundary as well as the ring boundaries. We can only assume that growth increments are being equated to sapwood ring boundaries. For a simple assignment of estimating age, I'd find it a very reasonable request (although I don't condone the methodolgy :) ). Nonetheless, I posted the article for the great responses, not the original question itself, but those that follow from the answers.

 

The two types of wood within an individual year's ring however, are Summer-wood, and Winter-wood, or also called early-wood and late-wood. Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research, The University of Arizona

 

I remember looking at the various layers through microscope slides at uni. I remember liking the cambium the most.

[Turtle]

I remember looking at the various layers through microscope slides at uni. I remember liking the cambium the most. ;)

 

I am green with envy. :)

I went looking for the belt-sander we had, but I think it's out on a job. ;) While I was 98% sure on the ID using the rings & grain, the only other tree in situ the limb may have fallen from was an Oregon Ash. Clearly to me from the bark scan, showing wide rather than thin ridges, the sample is Oak. Do you concur? Moreover, the other leaf scan from a nearby oak confirms Garry Oak on the site, so I'll go out on a limb & say the scanned sample is Garry Oak. Do you concur? ;)

Fraxinus latifolia Fact Sheet - VT Dendrology

Quercus garryana Fact Sheet - VT Dendrology

[freeztar]

the sample is Oak. Do you concur?

 

I'm not a Dendrologist, so I can't say for sure. I need leaves and flowers, and sometimes roots.

 

Moreover, the other leaf scan from a nearby oak confirms Garry Oak on the site, so I'll go out on a limb & say the scanned sample is Garry Oak. Do you concur? ;) :)

Fraxinus latifolia Fact Sheet - VT Dendrology

Quercus garryana Fact Sheet - VT Dendrology

 

Ok, thanks for the info! ;)

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Turtle

the sample is Oak. Do you concur?

I'm not a Dendrologist, so I can't say for sure. I need leaves and flowers, and sometimes roots. :doh:

 

:cup: I'm not a dendrologist, but I play one online. ;) At any rate dear readers, read the you as if 'you all' is implied; you all feel free to offer more evidence or opinion on the conclusions here drawn on the evidence presented. :(

 

The specialty of ecology requires the generalization of many specialties. As I can't afford an increment borer to take wood samples, or a microscope to examine them, we'll have to settle for a less specialized approach. :doh:

 

Here's just such a generalization. >> The Oak branch is 3.375" in diameter & 36 years old. I measured one Garry Oak in the forest at 32" diameter. I extrapolate an approximate age for the tree by solving the ratio 3.375/36=32/x, and x=341 years.

[freeztar]

:( I'm not a dendrologist, but I play one online. :D At any rate dear readers, read the you as if 'you all' is implied; you all feel free to offer more evidence or opinion on the conclusions here drawn on the evidence presented. :doh:

 

The specialty of ecology requires the generalization of many specialties. As I can't afford an increment borer to take wood samples, or a microscope to examine them, we'll have to settle for a less specialized approach. :doh:

 

Sounds good to me. ;)

 

Here's just such a generalization. >> The Oak branch is 3.375" in diameter & 36 years old. I measured one Garry Oak in the forest at 32" diameter. I extrapolate an approximate age for the tree by solving the ratio 3.375/36=32/x, and x=341 years. :cup:

 

How cool Turts! I've never thought to do that. :)

 

That's an old oak!

That seems like a really special place you have found there...Long Live Lechtenberg!

[Turtle]

Sounds good to me. :)

Here's just such a generalization. >> The Oak branch is 3.375" in diameter & 36 years old. I measured one Garry Oak in the forest at 32" diameter. I extrapolate an approximate age for the tree by solving the ratio 3.375/36=32/x, and x=341 years.

How cool Turts! I've never thought to do that. :)

 

That's an old oak! :P

That seems like a really special place you have found there...Long Live Lechtenberg!

 

It is turning out special yes :) ; I hope my drawing attention to it doesn't make for its downfall. :( :)

 

So back to my technique for extrapolation of tree age estimates. Examining my ring scan, we see there is quite a variability in rate of growth.(click pic for enlarged image in new window) >>

In the first 20 years, the branch grew 2 3/4" inches In diameter (twice the radius shown), however in the last 16 years of life the branch grew only 1 1/8". So we have a fast rate of .1375"/year and a slow rate of .070"/year. Substituting we find a new age assuming fast growth of 232 years and a slow growth age of 455 years. As the predominant ecological feature for the area is water, I suspect the narrow rings reveal a long drought.

 

The only sure record of course is to use an increment borer or cut down the tree. Maybe if I get real jazzed on this I'll see if the local extension service has an increment borer, or maybe I can make one. :)

 

The place however appears to be largely as it was when Lewis & Clark passed just 4 miles South sometime in October of 1805. (I don't rcall if I mentioned, but I have seen no stumpage in the park that would indicate it had ever been logged.) As soon as my back & knee are back to pioneer status, I'll head back for more data. :cup:

[Cedars]

It is turning out special yes :cup: ; I hope my drawing attention to it doesn't make for its downfall. :)

 

So back to my technique for extrapolation of tree age estimates. Examining my ring scan, we see there is quite a variability in rate of growth.(click pic for enlarged image in new window) >>

 

In the first 20 years, the branch grew 2 3/4" inches In diameter (twice the radius shown), however in the last 16 years of life the branch grew only 1 1/8". So we have a fast rate of .1375"/year and a slow rate of .070"/year. Substituting we find a new age assuming fast growth of 232 years and a slow growth age of 455 years. As the predominant ecological feature for the area is water, I suspect the narrow rings reveal a long drought.

 

The only sure record of course is to use an increment borer or cut down the tree. :) Maybe if I get real jazzed on this I'll see if the local extension service has an increment borer, or maybe I can make one. :)

 

The place however appears to be largely as it was when Lewis & Clark passed just 4 miles South sometime in October of 1805. (I don't rcall if I mentioned, but I have seen no stumpage in the park that would indicate it had ever been logged.) As soon as my back & knee are back to pioneer status, I'll head back for more data. :P

 

Do you know where on the tree the branch came from?

As trees grow, the top receives the most sunshine, and growth effort is put into the regions which will provide the most sunshine for the leaves. You also have northern vs southern vs western vs eastern exposure that may account for some of these growth factors. Earlier growth could indicate good access to sunshine, later slowing could be due to resource management within the tree itself. The effort of the branch becomes stretch outward (or ignore and die off, if shaded by other growth). Drought may have magnified the tree response / resource efforts.

[Turtle]

Do you know where on the tree the branch came from?

As trees grow, the top receives the most sunshine, and growth effort is put into the regions which will provide the most sunshine for the leaves. You also have northern vs southern vs western vs eastern exposure that may account for some of these growth factors. Earlier growth could indicate good access to sunshine, later slowing could be due to resource management within the tree itself. The effort of the branch becomes stretch outward (or ignore and die off, if shaded by other growth). Drought may have magnified the tree response / resource efforts.

 

I don't know where on the tree the branch came from, or for that matter even which tree it came from. :) :) I am making broad generalizations based on my limited data, and I plan to use these generalizations to guide what I investigate on future trips. So, in general, I have a stand of mixed hardwoods & conifer, and at least some of the Garry Oaks hundreds of years old.

 

Mentioning the 'predominant ecological factor' again in relation to the growth factors you brought up, that phrase is my paraphrase of a specific dendrochronologist's determination that I read about at a dendro web site. That is to say, they have specific criteria that determine the 'predominant factor', and it is that factor only then that is related to variance in growth ring width. Besides water for example, temperature may be the predominant factor.

 

I'll try & find the info again as I know the phrase I used is not the exact terminology. :P

 

Addenda: TreeRingsAndAge

 

The ULTIMATE tree-ring pages!

[Cedars]

I don't know where on the tree the branch came from, or for that matter even which tree it came from. :hyper: :hyper: :hyper: I am making broad generalizations based on my limited data, and I plan to use these generalizations to guide what I investigate on future trips. So, in general, I have a stand of mixed hardwoods & conifer, and at least some of the Garry Oaks hundreds of years old.

 

Mentioning the 'predominant ecological factor' again in relation to the growth factors you brought up, that phrase is my paraphrase of a specific dendrochronologist's determination that I read about at a dendro web site. That is to say, they have specific criteria that determine the 'predominant factor', and it is that factor only then that is related to variance in growth ring width. Besides water for example, temperature may be the predominant factor.

 

I'll try & find the info again as I know the phrase I used is not the exact terminology. :hyper: :xparty:

 

Addenda: TreeRingsAndAge

 

The ULTIMATE tree-ring pages!

 

I only mentioned what I did because using a branch is harder than a tree trunk core sample for sure. And with branches, the predominant ecological factor changes (based on what I know of tree growth) compared to what you see in a trunk ring sample.

 

The thin rings may indicate an opening created on a different side of the tree, and the tree adjusting its branch growth to absorb more sunlight in the area opened up.

 

It occured in my yard, with the removal of a huge elm that was creating foundation issues. The huge oak just north and east of this tree has hurled out huge branch growth on the southern (and now exposed spot), while the northern and eastern branch growth is marginal.

 

A reallocation of the tree growth resources that would show up in tree branch rings.

[Turtle]

I only mentioned what I did because using a branch is harder than a tree trunk core sample for sure. And with branches, the predominant ecological factor changes (based on what I know of tree growth) compared to what you see in a trunk ring sample.

 

The thin rings may indicate an opening created on a different side of the tree, and the tree adjusting its branch growth to absorb more sunlight in the area opened up.

 

It occured in my yard, with the removal of a huge elm that was creating foundation issues. The huge oak just north and east of this tree has hurled out huge branch growth on the southern (and now exposed spot), while the northern and eastern branch growth is marginal.

 

A reallocation of the tree growth resources that would show up in tree branch rings.

 

Acknowledged. In fact, the branch I cut & scanned was asymmetric, and I scanned the narrower 'half'. It may be also a differential in growth from the top-side to bottom-side of the branch.

 

I ran across this interesting comment on one of the links I gave:

Sun spots

The study of the rings on a tree has revealed many interesting things. Amongst them is the fact that the sun has 11 and 22 year cycles.

http://www.the-tree.org.uk/EnchantedForest/treeringsandage.htm

 

They seem to imply sunspot cycles were unknown until tree rings gave the clue? :hihi:

 

At any rate, it seems that lacking the increment borer for a proper sample, it's time to fire up the chainsaw. :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

[freeztar]

It may be also a differential in growth from the top-side to bottom-side of the branch.

 

I would imagine that the bottom side of the branch would be denser to support the weight above. That's a theory that should be easy enough to test.

I ran across this interesting comment on one of the links I gave:

 

TreeRingsAndAge

 

They seem to imply sunspot cycles were unknown until tree rings gave the clue? :shrug:

 

Following the links below tells otherwise.

 

NASA/Marshall Solar Physics

Dendrochronology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At any rate, it seems that lacking the increment borer for a proper sample, it's time to fire up the chainsaw. :eek: :doh: :hyper:

 

:eek2: :eek:

 

Let me know when you're planning on doing the "incremental slicing" so I can fly out there and chain myself to the tree.

:hihi:

[Turtle]

:hyper: :hihi:

 

Let me know when you're planning on doing the "incremental slicing" so I can fly out there and chain myself to the tree.

:eek2:

 

Not a problem. I recommend taking a chained position above the cut and windward of the fall. :shrug:

 

Now experience here tells me that my cynical satire often goes missing on many readers, so let me clarify that I have no intention of sawing down any trees in Lechtenberg Forest or otherwise harming it. Next week, my special camas-stuffed squirrel recipe.

[freeztar]

:lol:

 

Not a problem. I recommend taking a chained position above the cut and windward of the fall. :hyper:

 

My only request is that you cut below my feet.

Now experience here tells me that my cynical satire often goes missing on many readers, so let me clarify that I have no intention of sawing down any trees in Lechtenberg Forest or otherwise harming it.

 

Pheeewwww! :)

Next week, my special camas-stuffed squirrel recipe.

 

I love squirrels. Unfortunately, they are over abundant in my area. The hawks that were nesting across the street have left their nest and the only sign of population control is roadkill.

I counted 12 squirrels in my backyard (~0.4 acres) on a sunny day in February. They consistently (and almost seemingly intentionally) run in front of cars traversing the neighborhood streets.

If only Camas grew here! :hyper:

[Racoon]

Turtle and I delved deep into the heart of Lechtenburg Park on a pleasently warm afternoon yesterday. Environmental Study was the name of the game.

Several samples were taken, as were photographs.

 

Here is a sample of what we encountered:

 

On the Way to Lechtenberg, not far from Turtles residence, is a quaint Buddhist themed house. Apparently its Vietnamese in denomination.

 

 

 

 

After parking and traversing a stretch of dangerous road, we segwayed into the forested area..

Here is LaCamas creek; the main artery.

 

 

 

Turtle was awed by this resplendent Oak and its fellow arbolian bretheren..

How old would you wager this grove to be??

 

 

 

Identify us these?? We have yet to identify these species. :confused: :eek: :D

 

 

 

A Grand discovery was also later made! The field of Scatology rejoiced at a fresh and finely manufactured specimen; thus advancing our deeper understanding. Judging by the content and dimensions we concluded that it is elk, and not bear. :applause:

 

 

 

The highlight of our Trek was the discovery of a colony of heron. There was about 5 or 6 congregating in closely assembled nests. These heron are different becuz' they hunt frogs and salamanders at night and are social birds. We bumbled upon a pond close nearby...

 

 

All field work and no play makes for a boring afternoon. So some light-hearted fun was in order. If you see a Turtle in a tree, you know it didn't get there by itself! :hihi: :)

 

 

 

This concludes a portion of the Lechtenberg report

:phones: :pirate: :steering: :) :( :smart: :esmoking: :Glasses: :hihi:

[Turtle]

Turtle and I delved deep into the heart of Lechtenburg Park on a pleasently warm afternoon yesterday. Environmental Study was the name of the game.

Several samples were taken, as were photographs.

...

This concludes a portion of the Lechtenberg report

:phones: :pirate: :steering: ;) :D :smart: :esmoking: :Glasses: :)

 

i have to start by giving mucho props to racoon san; my deepest genuflection with all four knees in his direction. silly me, i presumed rac was following this thread and knew what it meant to venture into lechtenberg, when if fact he never read any of the thread.:eek: my bad!:doh: as a consequence, he came dressed for the weather in shorts:eek2:, and yet continued on through the briars & brush covering the majority of the terrain. (is the bleeding stopped yet rac? :D ) i also failed to inform him i planned to find & bring back an oak log for a wood project i have in mind, and yet he took turns with me carrying the 8 1/2" diameter x 17" long 20 pound chunk back to base. takk rac!

 

we went in to the section bordering the eastern bank of lacamas creek this time so the territory was new to me as well as racoon. we did find an old homestead with a mostly buried flat concrete foundation, and a trash pile of old bottles & cans. quite a few decades old it seemed, as the cans were opened with punched holes ala 'church-keys'.

 

i have a lot of materials still to process, but i took a sample of a plant that freeztar commented on from the last expedition. at least i think it's the same plant. anyway, here's a scan freezy of what you though might be an invasive species.

I'm not 100% about this, but I believe the understory plant growing around the skunk cabbage is Herb Robert (Geranium robertanium)

 

more to come. that's a wrap. :cup:

[Turtle]

A Grand discovery was also later made! The field of Scatology rejoiced at a fresh and finely manufactured specimen; thus advancing our deeper understanding. Judging by the content and dimensions we concluded that it is elk, and not bear. ;) :)

 

 

i didn't hink this scat was deer, because deer scat is typically roundy small pellets. it was not bear poo, and while i thought elk scat was more like a cow-pie, the size of our find & plant fiber content left me saying "could be elk". i have now found that deer scap sometimes takes another form besides roundy pellets, and it is called 'clustered form'. apparently the clustering is a result of eating moister food than usual. so, deer scat it is. :D

 

Wild Turkey Scat

[Turtle]

in my haste i neglected to include a scale with these scans . suffice it to say all are small enough to fit comfortably on a scanner. :) the blue/purple flowers are barely 3-4mm across though. :D ;)