Fats

[Jay-qu]

Unsaturated/saturated, long chain/short chain, trans/cis. Whats good for you and how much should you eat?

 

I have just read through this article and it is in contradiction to what I have heard over the years - yet makes a lot of logical sense!

 

Tell me what you think and discuss below :)

 

J

[Racoon]

Fats got a bad rap, but like anything, you need the good ones.

You'll hear Omega 3's and 6's, and those are good things. :)

 

Flax seed oil. Olive oil. Fish oils. Nut oils.;

are your best sources of relatively available and commercial fatty acids.

 

How much you need is dependant on your activity level.

If you're doing Triathlons, lets say, then you could as well consume 30% of your daily calories from these high quality fat sources.

 

There are a lot of factors..

The fats you want to avoid are of course saturated, and anything that is hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated.

 

There are specialty supplements like CLA, conjugated-linoleic acid, that are available.

 

After a little reading and common sense, its pretty easy to know what to eat, how much, and how it affects you..

 

Fatty Acids - Good Fats, Bad Fats, Saturated Fats and More

 

Bodybuilding.com - David Robson - Good And Bad Fats: How Do We Balance Their Intake For Optimal Health!

 

a fatty acid is a carboxylic acid often with a long unbranched aliphatic tail (chain), which is either saturated or unsaturated. Carboxylic acids as short as butyric acid (4 carbon atoms) are considered to be fatty acids, while fatty acids derived from natural fats and oils may be assumed to have at least 8 carbon atoms, e.g. caprylic acid (octanoic acid). Most of the natural fatty acids have an even number of carbon atoms, because their biosynthesis involves acetyl-CoA, a coenzyme carrying a two-carbon-atom group.

 

Saturated fatty acids do not contain any double bonds or other functional groups along the chain. The term "saturated" refers to hydrogen, in that all carbons (apart from the carboxylic acid [-COOH] group) contain as many hydrogens as possible. In other words, the omega (ω) end contains 3 hydrogens (CH3-) and each carbon within the chain contains 2 hydrogen

 

Saturated fatty acids form straight chains and, as a result, can be packed together very tightly, allowing living organisms to store chemical energy very densely.

 

[Jay-qu]

Thanks for the info Rac, but I was more wanting an opinion on whats in the above link - namely the 'lipid hypothesis'

 

 

The theory—called the lipid hypothesis—that there is a direct relationship between the amount of saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet and the incidence of coronary heart disease was proposed by a researcher named Ancel Keys in the late 1950's. Numerous subsequent studies have questioned his data and conclusions. Nevertheless, Keys' articles received far more publicity than those presenting alternate views. The vegetable oil and food processing industries, the main beneficiaries of any research that found fault with competing traditional foods, began promoting and funding further research designed to support the lipid hypothesis.

 

you said to avoid saturated fats, which is what I have heard most of my life - but why?

[ronthepon]

Thanks for the info Rac, but I was more wanting an opinion on whats in the above link - namely the 'lipid hypothesis'

 

 

 

you said to avoid saturated fats, which is what I have heard most of my life - but why?

For one thing, saturated fats can precipitate faster.

[Jay-qu]

ok, so what concequence does 'precipitating faster' have on health?

[maikeru]

Getting lodged in your arteries. :shrug: Saturated fats seem to increase inflammation and stabilize membrane and signaling interactions of immune cells. If macrophages attack a plaque in your arteries and cause damage to the artery or break the plaque free, it can lead to a heart attack. The latest medical and scientific evidence suggests that heart disease is an interplay between diet and the immune system.

[Jay-qu]

There is no evidence that saturated fats are the ones doing the clogging..

 

The scientific evidence, honestly evaluated, does not support the assertion that "artery-clogging" saturated fats cause heart disease.44 Actually, evaluation of the fat in artery clogs reveals that only about 26% is saturated. The rest is unsaturated, of which more than half is polyunsaturated.45

 

Now while this isnt conclusive and one may say "perhaps the saturated fats start off the clogging and the other fats just get caught after" but this would be trying to fit the results to our current model and not the other way around!

 

Consider:

Saturated fatty acids constitute at least 50% of the cell membranes. They are what gives our cells necessary stiffness and integrity.

 

They play a vital role in the health of our bones. For calcium to be effectively incorporated into the skeletal structure, at least 50% of the dietary fats should be saturated.

 

They lower Lp(a), a substance in the blood that indicates proneness to heart disease.39 They protect the liver from alcohol and other toxins, such as Tylenol.

 

They are needed for the proper utilization of essential fatty acids.

Elongated omega-3 fatty acids are better retained in the tissues when the diet is rich in saturated fats.

 

Saturated 18-carbon stearic acid and 16-carbon palmitic acid are the preferred foods for the heart, which is why the fat around the heart muscle is highly saturated.43 The heart draws on this reserve of fat in times of stress.

 

common I expected more of you guys to be blown away by this stuff as I am - or is it all wrong and Im been taken for a ride.. If so tell me your views on the subject :eek_big:

 

J

[Monomer]

common I expected more of you guys to be blown away by this stuff as I am - or is it all wrong and Im been taken for a ride.. If so tell me your views on the subject :eek_big:

 

J

 

Just read the article, and thought it was very interesting indeed. I may need to rethink the reduction of saturated fats in my diet.

 

I agree with you that it makes sense, particulary this:

 

The cause of heart disease is not animal fats and cholesterol but rather a number of factors inherent in modern diets, including excess consumption of vegetables oils and hydrogenated fats; excess consumption of refined carbohydrates in the form of sugar and white flour; mineral deficiencies, particularly low levels of protective magnesium and iodine; deficiencies of vitamins, particularly of vitamin C, needed for the integrity of the blood vessel walls, and of antioxidants like selenium and vitamin E, which protect us from free radicals; and, finally, the disappearance of antimicrobial fats from the food supply, namely, animal fats and tropical oils.52 These once protected us against the kinds of viruses and bacteria that have been associated with the onset of pathogenic plaque leading to heart disease.

 

Also another article states something similar:

 

The differences between the cave man lifestyle and contemporary lifestyle are dramatic. We consume high amounts of sugar and refined carbohydrates, we smoke and drink alcohol, ingest preservative and pesticide laden foods and don’t perform the same degree of physical labor. All these factors impact our physical health but the culprit is not saturated fat. The culprits in our society are refined carbohydrates, trans-fats and lack of exercise. Heart disease and clogged arteries were virtually unheard of before the 1900’s when lifestyle and diet changes occurred in the population.

 

Eidon Minerals - Total Nutrition - Does Saturated Fat Clogs Arteries?

 

 

Along with most of the world I have believed that saturated fats are an enemy. But the paragraph below shows some interesting statistics.

 

Today heart disease causes at least 40% of all US deaths. If, as we have been told, heart disease results from the consumption of saturated fats, one would expect to find a corresponding increase in animal fat in the American diet. Actually, the reverse is true. During the sixty-year period from 1910 to 1970, the proportion of traditional animal fat in the American diet declined from 83% to 62%, and butter consumption plummeted from eighteen pounds per person per year to four. During the past eighty years, dietary cholesterol intake has increased only 1%. During the same period the percentage of dietary vegetable oils in the form of margarine, shortening and refined oils increased about 400% while the consumption of sugar and processed foods increased about 60%

 

There are more articles out there supporting saturated fats:

 

Saturated Fat and Post-Menopausal Women - Second Opinions

National Dairy Council - Changing Perspectives on Fat, Saturated Fat & Heart Disease

The Cholesterol Myth: Dietary Fats and Heart Disease - Second Opinions

 

 

So why the contradiction to what we already know about saturated fats? We believed saturated fats contributed to heart disease because the information seemed logical. From Ja-qu's article it appears that saturated fat from animal sources are okay, but saturated fat from vegetable oil is not good. Something about the hydrogenated vegetable oil...

 

 

The Great Cholesterol Con

[maikeru]

There is no evidence that saturated fats are the ones doing the clogging..

 

<Pulls the boxing gloves off. Cracks knuckles.> Now we go at it for real. :)

 

While I find the article to have much good, I think some of its science and vagueness and examples are suspect. If I could give it a grade, it'd be 70-75%.

 

First off, I want to bring to your attention that there were some words from an example that echoed in my memory: "The Masai and kindred tribes of Africa subsist largely on milk, blood and beef. They are free from coronary heart disease and have excellent blood cholesterol levels." Masai? Wait, I'd heard about the Masai before on a raw milk website, where Kcolo and I have discussed raw milk with raw milk advocates. Sally Fallon is a noted advocate for Real Milk, AKA, "raw milk." Check her link below in the article for Real Milk if you don't believe me. Using the Masai as an example of a proud healthy people due to raw milk and saturated fats seems poor, as kcolo once noted, and a raw milk website mentions:

In today's modern world, and even with the healing power of raw milk on their side, the average Maasai male can expect to live for only 43 years, compared to 77 years for males in the U.S.

 

And:

Many of their children die before reaching the age of five.

 

Above quotes from: The Maasai

 

Consider that many of the unhealthy or unfortunate died before they ever got to adulthood. Consider that the average lifespan of a Masai male is 42 years and 44 years for a Masai woman, according to a link I found on the BBC ( BBC - Northamptonshire - Features - Living with the Maasai ). Heart disease, cancer, etc. often are considered "diseases of the elderly"--that is, increasingly common and probable after 50-60 years old. Perhaps it's no surprise that heart disease and blood cholesterol would be at low levels in young, healthy people who'd survived high infant to young adult mortality? The elderly are not common in their society. Thus diseases like heart disease and cancer might be rarities?

 

The study cited in your article is also more than 40 years old, which sets a poor standard for citation and use. The cancer research professor I used to work for once told me that he didn't want to see any scientific papers more than 5 years old, and maybe 10 if they were really good, because science, technology, and knowledge move on so quickly.

 

There might be possible bias or picky pickings with the evidence because of their raw milk link. I suggest there may be other examples that might prove to be useless or suspect as this one, to me, appears to be.

 

Now while this isnt conclusive and one may say "perhaps the saturated fats start off the clogging and the other fats just get caught after" but this would be trying to fit the results to our current model and not the other way around!

 

Well, something like that, although it's a little different. From what I remember, some current atherogenesis models suggest:

 

Saturated fat or oxidized unsaturated fat becomes deposited the walls of arteries, which causes minor flow blockage and irritation. This irritation leads to inflammation, which then attracts white blood cells, primarily macrophages, to the fatty deposit, who then try to consume LDL particles, fats, and other cellular debris. These macrophages, now termed "foam cells," cannot process all the debris, and die necrotically, causing a larger cascade of inflammatory factors which then attracts more macrophages. Eventually, the fatty streak becomes composed primarily of dead cells and their membranes, LDL particles and cholesterol, etc. The fatty streak begins to calcify and harden over time. The rich content of cellular membranes from the dead white blood cells can probably account for much of the other fats, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated, and cholesterol, as cholesterol is common in the cellular membranes of many immune cells. Does this help?

 

Atherosclerosis: The New View: Scientific American

Atherosclerosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Atheroma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While the early stages, based on gross appearance, have traditionally been termed fatty streaks by pathologists, they are not composed of fat cells, i.e. adipose cells, but of accumulations of white blood cells, especially macrophages that have taken up oxidixed low-density lipoprotein (LDL). After they accumulate large amounts of cytoplasmic membranes (with associated high cholesterol content) they are called foam cells. When foam cells die, their contents are released, which attracts more macrophages and creates an extracellular lipid core near the center to inner surface of each atherosclerotic plaque.

 

Not only that, and I didn't know this, but the first wiki link says that when cholesterol is oxidized, the result is to attract more macrophages and white blood cells. This probably means more inflammation and immune involvement. In the proper contexts, this would be good, to initiate or heighten an immune attack against an invader or pathogen. This is not good in the improper places, e.g., your arteries. Also, it seems that the increased incorporation of saturated fats, trans-fats, and more cholesterol into cellular membranes of immune cells increases their release of inflammatory cytokines (by stabilizing membrane fluidity, lipid rafts, and signaling interactions) and bumps up their immune reactivity. Theoretically, this could send more immune cells on the rampage, to attack and die en masse in those atheromas and increase atherosclerotic lesions.

 

Effect of hydrogenated and saturated, relative to polyunsaturated, fat on immune and inflammatory responses of adults with moderate hypercholesterolemia -- Han et al. 43 (3): 445 -- Journal of Lipid Research

Depletion of Cellular Cholesterol and Lipid Rafts Increases Shedding of CD30 -- von Tresckow et al. 172 (7): 4324 -- The Journal of Immunology (This applies to T cells, but lipid rafts are used in many cells to organize signaling molecules or proteins. Cholesterol plays a vital role by stabilizing and associating with lipid rafts.)

 

More on fats, diet, and atherosclerosis:

 

The Berkeley Science Review: Read: Articles

 

Seems some evidence suggests that saturated fats may also limit the ability of your blood vessels to expand and increase inflammation within the arteries:

 

Meals High In Saturated Fat Impair "good" Cholesterol's Ability To Protect Against Clogged Arteries

 

common I expected more of you guys to be blown away by this stuff as I am - or is it all wrong and Im been taken for a ride.. If so tell me your views on the subject

 

J

 

It really depends on the kinds of fats.

 

I purposefully simplified my first post, because this is a large and contentious subject. By the time I finish arguing and examining everything, I will have a small book's worth of posts written here. :Alien:

 

I am not saying that saturated fats, cholesterol, etc. are "evil," but there does seem to be a lot of scientific evidence that suggests overconsumption can have negative health consequences, such as heart disease and atherosclerosis, increased risk for strokes, cancer, osteoporosis (seems linked to increased activity of osteoclasts chomping on bone), etc. Overconsumption of polyunsaturated fats might be bad, too, because omega-3s seem to inhibit clotting, increase blood viscosity and flow, and reduce inflammation, leading to possibly increased risk for stroke, excessive bleeding, etc. If they are oxidized (i.e., rancid) while in your blood, they seem to deposit themselves and become harmful too. Yet they are vitally necessary for brain and heart health and help to control excessive inflammation.

 

Both saturated and unsaturated fats, except trans-fats, are needed in certain amounts. It's more important to get the right kinds in the right quantities.

 

Check some of my other posts in this forum on Western diets, raw milk, or visit Ken's health blog, which has some nice posts on different kinds of fats:

 

Health Points: Omega-3s: More on ALA:EPA:DHA

Health Points: Omega-3 Fats: The Right Ratio

[Jay-qu]

Thats the kind of response I wanted :phones:

 

Ok, so you say that the mono and poly unsaturated fats found in clots may be due to the dead cells that have come to repair the clotting. This is a satisfactory explanation - but if it is true, then would you not expect that the ratios of the fats found in the clot equal approximately that of the cells? I cant find anywhere the ratio of fat in these cells you speak of, but I would be much more convinced if we found it and it did match!

 

I agree that saturated fats still arent 'good' and unsaturated is 'bad'. Our body needs both and it needs them in the right quantities, but its just that I had always been told to avoid saturated fats at all costs. Now I think that I wont limit my natural intake - ie dont cut the fat off my steak. Instead cut down on butter and definitely be carefull using unsaturated fats in cooking.

 

J

[InfiniteNow]

Instead cut down on butter and definitely be carefull using unsaturated fats in cooking.

Balance my friend. Sometimes it's about quality and enjoyment of life rather than quantity and duration. I think butter is a metaphor for heaven. Well... That, and bacon.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd practically be willing to drink good cold first press virgin olive oil, but butter is worth the risk. :D

 

After all, why this concern over fat types when you load yourself full of beer anyway? Just eat and drink what tastes right and die happy.

 

 

Mmm... highly marbled kobe beef steak cooked in european style butter and topped with blue cheese... mmmm.... with a side of garlic mashed potatoes with more butter and heavy cream... mmmm.... and a nice chocolate stout... mmmm... and pears with triple-cream brie for desert...

 

:phones:

 

 

I think I just had a heart attack, but I'm smiling all the same. ;)

[gribbon]

One thing you haven’t covered is interesterified fats, (he he!) + a few other things...:)

 

Anyway, let me have a little go...I hope this helps you, Jay!:shrug: :hyper:

 

Interesterified fats

 

These are fats that have been chemically modified, using stearic acid to avoid raising LDL size. If you replace a polyunsaturated fatty-acid molecule in vegetable oil with stearic acid though, (which is what Interesterification is about) you might get problems if that stearic acid is placed in the middle fatty-acid position on a fat molecule, (instead of saturated fatty acid) since it is not as easily metabolized. They can also raise blood sugar levels.

 

Trans fats

 

These things suck, as despite being a type of unsaturated fat, they are neither needed nor beneficial to our health, and whatsmore they increase the risk of coronary heart disease. There was some talk a while back about banning them, as they result from partial hydrogenation of vegetable oils, with only tiny amounts coming from cows milk and other ruminants. Because of their straight rather than kinked shape, they aren’t very fluid, making them thick, gooey and butter like with high melting points, (not good), they are twice as bad as saturated fats at raising cholestorol levels, (not only do they increase LDL density, they decrease HDL density, making the ratio worse) and an extrordinary ability to interfere with delta 6 desaturase enzyme in the liver. Brilliant.

 

Polyunsaturated fats

 

Polyunsaturated fats/Mono unsaturates are what we need. About 45 g in a 2000 calorie-per-day diet is what’s recommended. These don’t usually have a trans configuration, and are quicker to be broken down. Omega-6 fatty acids in sunflower oil and safflower oil also reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease, but can aggravate to allergies and inflammation. They can also increase free rad no.s, causing cancer, but overall they are far far better.

[Jay-qu]

Just eat and drink what tastes right and die happy.

 

You make a compelling argument but..

 

There is nothing happy about dying prematurely and in pain..

 

Besides while some foods taste good while you eat them, they make you feel like crap and your body doesnt run properly after consuming them. If all you worry about is instant gratification, then load up, worry about it later..

 

They [unsaturated fats] can also increase free rad no.s, causing cancer, but overall they are far far better.

 

why overall are they better, I started this thread knowing that the common consensus was that unsaturated fats are better for you - I want to know what the source of this idea is..

[Monomer]

why overall are they better, I started this thread knowing that the common consensus was that unsaturated fats are better for you - I want to know what the source of this idea is..

 

Research over the years has shown that unsaturated fat raises the levels of HDL - the "good cholesterol". I found an article that states that in the 70s researchers were showing that low HDL levels were associated with increased risk of coronary heart disease. Apparently unsaturated fats are transferred from plasma lecithin on to a cholesterol molecule, and then HDL takes this cholesterol to the liver for breakdown and excretion in a process called reverse cholesterol transport.

 

Dietary Fats & Fat Replacers

Welcome to Nurse Minerva

 

Reverse cholesterol transport system

HDL removes cholesterol from the peripheral tissues, such as fibroblasts and macrophages, and it is esterified by LCAT. The cholesteryl ester thus produced is transferred from the HDL to apo B–containing lipoproteins, such as VLDL, intermediate-density lipoprotein, and LDL, by a key protein termed cholesteryl ester transport protein in the liver. The HDL itself becomes enriched with TGs and subsequently becomes hydrolyzed by hepatic lipase. By this mechanism, the HDL finally becomes smaller again and is ready to scavenge more cholesterol. This pathway is called the reverse cholesterol transport system.

 

eMedicine - Low HDL Cholesterol (Hypoalphalipoproteinemia) : Article by Vibhuti N Singh

[maikeru]

Very nice articles, Monomer. :beer:

[Monomer]

Very nice articles, Monomer. :D

 

 

Thanks!

 

I found some other great articles but couldn't link them because I have access to the journals through my work, but nobody else would be able to read them.

 

But anyway, hopefully we're answering Jay-qu's questions :phones:

[Jay-qu]

Your doing a fine job, but I dont think you could ever answer them per-se.. The body is so complex, while it is easy to say 'there is a balance' - finding that balance may prove incredibly hard!