Do You Own a Gun ??

[CraigD]

Your OWN statistics show the states has the highest gun ownership and the highest death rate.

Please reread the offered statistics more carefully. They indicate that the Switzerland has the highest household gun ownership rate (35.7%, vs 32% for the US). Norway has nearly the same rate as the US, 31.5%.

 

The US does have the highest gun-related death rate, at 15.22/100,000/year. What is very interesting, is that, despite it’s higher ownership rate, Swizerland’s gun death rate of 6.4/100,000 is less than half the US’s. Norway’s gun death rate of 4.39/100,000 is even lower.

 

The critical point that I’m trying to make is that, while, as one would expect, people are killed by guns more often in countries in which guns are more commonplace, some countries have low gun death rates, yet fairly high ownership rates, suggesting that there’s more to the problem of guns and violence than the availability of guns.

 

An interesting view of the data can be had by sorting by the ratio of gun ownership to gun deaths. Note that Northern Ireland is the worst, with 1 gun death per year for every 1231.7 gun-owning households, while Spain is the best, with only 1 gun death for every 14111.1 gun households.

Gun-related    Household gun                   Gun ownership
deaths/100000  ownership/100  Country          / Gun deaths
-------------  -------------  -------          -------------
6.82           8.40          Northern Ireland        1231.7
15.22          32.00          United States           2102.5
0.70           1.90          Netherlands             2714.3
6.35          18.60          France                  2929.1
4.56          14.30          Austria                 3136.0
2.94          10.00          Australia               3401.4
6.86          24.00          Finland                 3498.5
3.72          13.80          Portugal                3709.7
4.78          19.10          Canada                  3995.8
3.48          16.50          Belgium                 4741.4
2.60          12.40          Denmark                 4769.2
2.95          16.00          Italy                   5423.7
6.40          35.70          Switzerland             5578.1
0.58           3.30          Scotland                5689.7
1.57           9.20          Germany                 5859.9
2.36          16.90          Sweden                  7161.0
4.39          31.50          Norway                  7175.4
0.46           3.40          England and Wales       7391.3
0.07           0.60          Japan                   8571.4
2.66          26.20          New Zealand             9849.6
0.90          12.70          Spain                  14111.1

What, one wonders, is the difference between Spain and Northern Ireland? 51% more Spanish households have guns, yet the gun death rate is 658% time higher in Northern Ireland.

 

I think it’s more beneficial to ask questions like these, than to rant about how CRAZY we all are in the USA.

You have been brainwashed by the people who sell guns.

Though a bit weak on supporting evidence, and strong on hyperpole, I think there’s some validity to this claim.

Do USA stats include accident and suicide?

Yes. Beginning on page 17, the US CDC NVSS that Star30 so helpfully cited does contain this, and much more detailed data, about all causes of death in the US in 2003 and 2004. Of the 29,036 deaths due to injury by firearms in 2004 (about 1.2% of the total 2,398,365 deaths, about 18% of the total 162,058 non-disease deaths) were a cause was determined, 16,603 were suicides, 11,250 homicides, 661 accidents, and 356 due to legal intervention. Compared to cardiovascular disease (862,800), cancer (550,270), or even such commonplace diseases as flu and pneumonia (61,472), or compared to accidents (108,694), deaths due to injury by firearms contributes only slightly to total deaths.

[Michaelangelica]

Look I think Americans should be free to kill other Americans, no worries

I am bowing out of this discussion

But

6.82 8.40 Northern Ireland

N. Ireland was at war for C***** sake!

[DougF]

Look I think Americans should be free to kill other Americans, no worries

I am bowing out of this discussion

But

6.82 8.40 Northern Ireland

N. Ireland was at war for C***** sake!

It would appear that the USA is not the only one with a gun problem!

 

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Crime (Australian Guns)

 

From: Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia.

Hi Yanks,

 

I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under.

 

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

 

The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent, Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent!). In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

 

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

 

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns."

 

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.

 

The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

 

Take note Americans, before it's too late!

 

 

 

Given this context, any claims based on statistics (even accurate ones) which posit a cause-and-effect relationship between the gun buyback program and increased crime rates because "criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed" are automatically suspect, since the average Australian citizen didn't own firearms even before the buyback. But beyond that, most of the statistics offered here are misleading and present only "first year results" where long-term trends need to be considered in order to draw valid cause-and-effect conclusions.

[Zythryn]

Moontanman: ...Actually all across the US where concealed carry laws have been passed both crime and gun deaths have gone down...

 

Your statement is far to absolute as this is not true in ALL cases. It may be true in some cases, or even most. This was being discussed in Minnesota lately as just a couple of years ago a conceal and carry law was passed. The crime rate has not dropped as the gun proponents said it would. However, the crime rate has also not increased as the gun control advocates said it would.

While the NRA may want everyone to believe that everyone would be safer if everyone has a gun, it just doesn't seem to follow.

If you have statistics from a non biased source I would love to see them.

Examples of report sources I would consider biased would be the NRA or MADD.

 

From Wiki I did find this: "In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences conducted a review of current research and data on firearms and violent crime, including Lott's work, and found that "there is no credible evidence that 'right-to-carry' laws, which allow qualified adults to carry concealed handguns, either decrease or increase violent crime." James Q. Wilson dissented from that opinion, and while accepting the committee's findings on violent crime in general, he argued that Lott's evidence confirmed that right-to-carry laws had an effect on murder rate.[9]"

[CraigD]

Look I think Americans should be free to kill other Americans, no worries

I find this a bizarre opinion. Like the people of nearly all nations, US citizens are not “free” to kill one another. Except in specific circumstances, such as self defense, or when employed as a police officer, killing a person is a crime, typically punished by long incarceration.

N. Ireland was at war for C***** sake!

Despite the adoption of the name “Irish Republican Army” by the civil paramilitary organization more properly known as the Provisional Irish Republican Army, and the use of the British Army as a security force ”The Troubles” in Northern Ireland since about 1969 are not considered by most historians and civil scholars to be a war. Also, most of the 3,523 people killed between 1969 and 2001 in The Troubles were killed by bombs and other non-firearms-related means, so are not included in gun-related death statistics.

 

Based on the given gun-related death rate of 6.82/100,000 and a population of about 1,710,000, about 117 people were killed with guns in Northern Ireland last year, while about 5 were killed in The Troubles. At its peak, in 1972, 479 people were killed in The Troubles.

 

I have drawn from information about many countries, because I believe gun-related death problems not to be unique to the USA, and feel that, by looking at countries that have very low gun-related death rates, yet high private gun ownership rates, lessons may be learned about how to reduce gun-related deaths in the US, and the world.

 

Because of its Constitution, which strongly protects the right of US citizens to own guns, solutions to problems of gun-related violence in the US are, barring the unlikely possibility of the of the Second Amendment or the unconstitutional creation of laws barring gun ownership, constrained to those in which the rate of private gun ownership, although possibly reduced, will still be large. Thus, cries to simply “ban guns” in the US are not helpful – what is needed are policies that reduce the likelihood that a gun will be used to cause injury or death.

[HarmonyAlexandria]

but perhaps you can explain how you justify wanting guns to be banned but feeling a need to have one at the same time.

 

I think it's perhaps yet another example of how we so often have our natural instincts and expressions legislated against. :confused:

 

well we have *two* instincts - fight or flight.

 

I prefer flight, or hiding, but that's not always possible. Some people solve the problem by not going into sketchy neighborhoods, of course that option isn't avalible to everyone, or in my case , I refuse to live in fear of thugs.

 

Not that I'm always armed, I still rely on a sharpened nail file as my primary means of defense, it's just that if I am in a situation where I *have* to defend myself, the person has to be close enough to stab, which is what convinced me to get a gun.

[InfiniteNow]

it's just that if I am in a situation where I *have* to defend myself, the person has to be close enough to stab, which is what convinced me to get a gun.

I do understand. I'm not a native Texan, but grew up in New York. My question is, do you think you should be arrested or ticketed for owning your gun? It's a bit like saying that I enjoy the occasional joint, but feel pot should be illegal.

 

 

 

Btw, Moontanman... Will you please find your enter key? Thx.

[Moontanman]

Look I think Americans should be free to kill other Americans, no worries

I am bowing out of this discussion

But

6.82 8.40 Northern Ireland

N. Ireland was at war for C***** sake!

 

Make no mistake, both sides use the statistics of guns to show support for their point of view. I am trained in statistical analysis, you can prove night is day with statistics. I put very little faith in statistics that are being used to prove any emotional point of view. Personally I think that owning a gun is a huge responsibility and should never be taken lightly. If you don't know how to use a gun it's crazy to buy one until you do or at least immediately get proper training after buying one. Even after training it is nesesarry to practice on a regular basis, it's like being prepared for a sport, you can't be good at it if you only do it once or twice in your life time. Imagine trying to play football and be good enough to be a professional and the only experience you have is watching the game. For home protection a hand gun is the worst choice possible, they are a child magnet and are easy to use, loading and firing is child's play, pun intended, only a true professional has any reason to really have a hand gun and all they are really good for is killing someone clandestinely. In an emergency situation where violence has already started a hand gun is about as likely to kill any one else as it is the perpetrator. I used mine for hunting on occasion and could hit things quite far away ( I could actually see then unlike now that I am old) I gave mine up years ago and I stand by that decision. But my shot gun is far too heavy and complex to be loaded and operated by most really small children and by the time my children were old enough I had already made sure they understood the operation use of guns thoroughly. They were bored with them by the time they could have one. Children naturally gravitate towards anything that is kept secret. Especially anything that is kept secret as strongly as some people keep their guns. It's a recipe for disaster to think your child will not be looking through your things when you are not around. They love you and are fascinated by everything you do, they will search through your stuff and if you have a weapon they will eventually find it. I always keep my long guns out in the open where I can see them and keep track of them at all times. When I was a child I wouldn't even have considered picking up one of the many long guns around the house. I knew that if it was really necessary I could use them and knew how and was allowed to do so on a regular basis so a gun was just another household item. Not a dream item, untouchable, made of unobtainium, and never to even be considered. Anything like that in a family will attract a child like candy. The reason for the high gun deaths in the USA has nothing to do with availability of guns. Even if they were illegal, in the USA you can get anything you want if you have the money, the law is meaningless under circumstances of extreme want. Drugs and prohibition pretty much proved that. So the key is education and experience. If you don't know guns, have no guns.

 

Michael

[InfiniteNow]

What's the difference between your two affirmative options (choices 1 & 3)?

 

Still waiting for clarification.

 

Was Jay-qu's supposition accurate?

 

Stil waiting...

[Jay-qu]

While there may be other leading causes of death would you say that of all of them guns may be an easier one to prevent?

 

I think the argument of 'the crims know their victems will be unarmed' is a weak one. While they may not be able to protect themselves I think that without a gun they are less of a threat to the criminals and would be treated thus. If you have a gun and you try and defend yourself with it, theres a larger chance your gonna get shot then if you just put your hands up.

 

Also other leading causes of death such as heart desease are the victims fault (yes I know it can be genetic - but our diets are not helping!). Gun related deaths can be so tragic because like the other day in Melbourne, a man going about his business on a normal day stopped to help a stranger been assualted, and was shot for his trouble. Now hes dead for trying to be a good samaritan.. While a desease related death is just as tragic to the family, I cant help but think in some cases 'they had it coming'

[Michaelangelica]

From: Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia.

Hi Yanks,

.

O, dear, Doug.

I was hoping to go quietly- yes officer,. is that a pistol ?or are you just happy to see me.?. .? .

 

Ed chanel!

He would not last five minutes in Australia with a name like that

How can you be sucked in by US gun lobby propaganda like this?

"Ed Chenel" is a pseudonym on an ABC public forum for C@#$^@ sake

Get some stats. from someone reliable

EG

Crime and criminal justice statistics

 

The Bryant shooting was in April 1996, not last year.

 

The Troubles” in Northern Ireland since about 1969 are not considered by most historians and civil scholars to be a war.

Semantic balderdash; ask someone who visited N. Ireland during that time.

 

Let me re-phrase my parting comment a little more democratically

Look I think ALL Americans should be free to kill ALL other Americans, no worries.

It is our best bet yet for reducing global warming.

[freeztar]

Look I think ALL Americans should be free to kill ALL other Americans, no worries.

It is our best bet yet for reducing global warming.

 

:eek:

:confused:

:doh:

[InfiniteNow]

Having known Mike for a while now, I find a lot of humor and frustration in his comments, and can see how others could easily read this the wrong way.

 

I do remind you, friend, that you are doing wrong to lump all Americans into one group. Really, your problem is just with everyone who does not live in Texas.

[freeztar]

Really, your problem is just with everyone who does not live in Texas.

 

Now *that* is humorous!

[Moontanman]

Your statement is far to absolute as this is not true in ALL cases. It may be true in some cases, or even most. This was being discussed in Minnesota lately as just a couple of years ago a conceal and carry law was passed. The crime rate has not dropped as the gun proponents said it would. However, the crime rate has also not increased as the gun control advocates said it would.

While the NRA may want everyone to believe that everyone would be safer if everyone has a gun, it just doesn't seem to follow.

If you have statistics from a non biased source I would love to see them.

Examples of report sources I would consider biased would be the NRA or MADD.

 

From Wiki I did find this: "In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences conducted a review of current research and data on firearms and violent crime, including Lott's work, and found that "there is no credible evidence that 'right-to-carry' laws, which allow qualified adults to carry concealed handguns, either decrease or increase violent crime." James Q. Wilson dissented from that opinion, and while accepting the committee's findings on violent crime in general, he argued that Lott's evidence confirmed that right-to-carry laws had an effect on murder rate.[9]"

 

 

so many emotional statistics are being thrown around i'm not sure if i would put much stock in any of the arguments pro or con. The further i look into it the more confusing it becomes. all i know for sure is my own attitudes towards guns and what i have personally seen and done.

 

Michael

[chilehed]

...Do you own a gun?

Does your government ban guns?

 

Has crime been reduced in the countries that ban guns?

Or is it part of the New World Order to control the masses?

Yes. Some of them. Not as a result of the gun bans. I'd call it a Totalitarian order, it's as old as the hills.

 

...I hate the thought of shooting someone, but realize it may come down to having to shoot someone in self-defense....

I also would hate to do it. But I'd hate leaving behind a widow and fatherless children more.

[Moontanman]

I'm not sure how much of this is accurate but does any one know if the part about Australia has any truth to it?

 

While the following has an obvious slant to it, it definitley is thought provoking.

 

Gun History Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting lesson in history. Something to think about... In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

 

In 1911, Turkey established gun control.

From1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable todefend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

 

 

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

 

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents,unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

 

Guatemala established gun control in 1964.

From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable todefend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

 

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

 

 

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From

1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

 

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

 

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender

640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

 

 

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!)

 

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

 

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

 

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear our president, governors or other politicians disseminating this information.

 

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

 

Take note my fellow Americans.....before it's too late!

 

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are "subjects".