U.S. Immigration Bill

[InfiniteNow]

And in today's news:

 

Tulsa's illegal immigration wreck - Gut_Check - MSNBC.com

 

In our first Gut Check America vote, thousands of readers around the country rated illegal immigration as the issue of most concern for them. Among them was Gary Rutledge, a Tulsa, Okla., college professor who wrote about being involved in a traffic accident with an apparent illegal immigrant. Here is our report on what we found when we traveled to Tulsa to follow up on his story:

 

The Oklahoma Governor himself said the bill would do little. Also, it's not quite "today's news." Why is this a good thing Racoon?

 

JURIST - Paper Chase: Oklahoma governor signs immigration bill targeting illegals

Oklahoma Governor Brad Henry Tuesday reluctantly signed a strict immigration reform bill meant to discourage illegal immigration. The Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007 [HB 1804 text, DOC] denies illegal immigrants state identification, and requires all state and local agencies to verify citizenship status of applicants before authorizing benefits. The law also require public employers to enter job applicants into an electronic immigration database to verify legal status. Henry said, however, that the new law would do little to curb illegal immigration and that the real responsibility to deal withe issue lay with the federal government. The State House approved the bill 84-14 last month.

 

Supporters praised the bill as a way to save taxpayer money, but immigrant groups criticized it for saddling Latinos with new discriminatory barriers in housing and jobs. The League of United Latin American Citizens and other advocacy groups have said they may challenge the law's constitutionality because immigration policy is the responsibility of the federal government, not the state.

 

 

To read the bill in it's entirety, see the following:

 

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08bills/HB/HB1804_int.rtf

 

 

 

Reaction:

 

Durant Democrat

Ed Romo, vice president of LULAC, said the legislation is reminiscent of the Jim Crow laws directed at blacks in in the American South prior to federal civil rights legislation.

 

“Our concern is this goes too far,” Romo said. “If you dehumanize humans, it's easy to mistreat them.”

<...>

“This is a bad bill. But we live in a political world,” Fennell said. “This bill is not going to solve one thing on immigration.”

[Racoon]

The Oklahoma Governor himself said the bill would do little. Also, it's not quite "today's news." Why is this a good thing Racoon?

 

JURIST - Paper Chase: Oklahoma governor signs immigration bill targeting illegals

 

 

 

To read the bill in it's entirety, see the following:

 

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08bills/HB/HB1804_int.rtf

 

 

 

Reaction:

 

Durant Democrat

 

Because Americans are sick of being invaded!

 

That sentiment is prevalent throughout history.... Just name the place mass illegal immigration was welcomed ??

 

Imgaine yourself getting involved in a serious car wreck with an illegal withwhom they are without insurance or license.. You'd love it!

 

You'd welcome them then I'm sure. :hihi: :D

 

That actually happens alot.

And whatever you say InfiniteNow, it isn't going to deter me from my current political position..

 

Becuase you say NOTHING on how to solve the problem.. You actually encourage illegal Immigration..

 

 

So in your almighty manner, can you please explain why we should keep the border absolutely open and let everyone in!??

[InfiniteNow]

Because Americans are sick of being invaded!

 

That sentiment is prevalent throughout history.... Just name the place mass illegal immigration was welcomed ??

 

Imgaine yourself getting involved in a serious car wreck with an illegal withwhom they are without insurance or license.. You'd love it!

 

You'd welcome them then I'm sure. :hihi: :D

 

That actually happens alot.

And whatever you say InfiniteNow, it isn't going to deter me from my current political position..

 

Becuase you say NOTHING on how to solve the problem.. You actually encourage illegal Immigration..

 

 

So in your almighty manner, can you please explain why we should keep the border absolutely open and let everyone in!??

I still hope to show you some warmth and pretend that you may ultimately take a more humanitarian viewpoint, but, if nothing else, I am offering the other view point for readers.

 

As per your clever example about a serious car wreck with an illegal having no insurance... Been there, done that.

 

It was junior year of high school, my car was totalled. He had no insurance, no papers, no speaka da ingish.

 

I didn't focus on their fault, nor do I support it. I had previously setup my insurance coverage to have "uninsured motorist" protection. Everything covered. Yes, it's happened to me, and you still see me posting with the position I do, not seething with hate and ignorance.

 

By claiming I "encourage illegal immigration" and "should keep the border absolutely open and let everyone in" in my "almighty manner" is both ad hominem and straw man.

 

So we disagree. Big deal. Why are you so worked up that you'd shoot me in the face for it?

[Racoon]

I'm Tired of your fukkin bullshite posts about Illegal Immigration InfiniteNow..

 

List the reasons why its good!??

List the reasons why the average American needs to forget them crossing the border illegally?

List the benefits that Superscede the costs in terms of Tax Dollars!

 

Do it!

I really want to hear..

Maybe you can statistically change my mind!

 

I ask you humbly in this post to back up your currently unpopular stance with FACTS you always tell people to use!

 

Make mass US Illegal immigration a good thing. :hihi:

[InfiniteNow]

I'm Tired of your fukkin bullshite posts about Illegal Immigration InfiniteNow..

 

List the reasons why its good!??

List the reasons why the average American needs to forget them crossing the border illegally?

List the benefits that Superscede the costs in terms of Tax Dollars!

 

Do it!

I really want to hear..

Maybe you can statistically change my mind!

 

I ask you humbly in this post to back up your currently unpopular stance with FACTS you always tell people to use!

 

Make mass US Illegal immigration a good thing. :hihi:

I've learned that you're too entrenched in your current viewpoint to waste my time trying to convince you of what's better for us as a planet regarding this issue.

 

I'm only responding so I could capture your quote before you went on a mass tear deleting your posts to cover up your klan-like attitude.

[Racoon]

You're afraid someone might know your answer..?

 

Thats why you never really extrapolate on your position..

 

Because its wrong, and you'd rather just try and bullshit it out until nobody cares about this thread anymore..

 

Becuz' for all the **** you've said, you don't back up why Illegal Immigration in the current numbers is so Great!??

 

Can You??

[CraigD]

List the reasons why its [illegal immigration] good!??

The main reason usually cited as an example of a positive effect of illegal immigrants is reducing labor costs, especially in agriculture. Conservative estimates, such as those in this fairus.com article, suggest that the cost to the consumer if illegal immigrant labor was unavailable would increase by about 2.5%, based on an increase in average agricultural labor costs of about 40%. Other estimates suggest that the increased cost of labor, and the resulting cost to the consumer would be much greater, while some suggest that the cost in a competitive market would be completely absorbed by the producer, resulting in financial losses only to the owners and shareholders of agricultural enterprises.

 

Some have noted that many services, such as housecleaners, nannies, etc. might become too expensive for many current middle-class customers, and suggested that the increased cost of childcare might hurt many dual-fulltime income families. I’m unaware of any convincing analysis to back up these claims.

List the reasons why the average American needs to forget them crossing the border illegally?

I don’t think the average American is particularly aware of illegal border crossings, or could give a reasonable estimate of its rate. Uncertainty concerning actual numbers and means exists, I believe, even for US law enforcement agents and analyists.

 

I believe this underscores one of the most grave problems of current US immigration policies – because legal immigration is limited to far less than immigration demand, reliable information about immigrant numbers and demographics is difficult to obtain, making policy planning difficult. It also allows people on both sides of the debate to make exaggerated claims in the absence of reliable data, heating the divisive rhetoric and encouraging ill-informed demagogy and jingoism.

List the benefits that Superscede the costs in terms of Tax Dollars!

Without considerable effort, I can’t. As noted above, obtaining reliable data is difficult. I’d have to first carefully review existing data, then, given its political volatility and lack of high-quality public records, design statistical controls, possibly requiring direct data gathering (surveying).

 

It does, however, help keep the matter in perspective to note that all non-Medicare, non-Social security education and welfare constitute less than 15% of total federal and state tax receipts. By comparison, Military spending constitutes about 30%, Social security and Medicare about 25%, and interest on the national dept about 20%. Considering that about 3% of the US population may be illegal aliens, and that education and welfare are the only benefits they can obtain, they consume about 0.5% of total tax receipts.

[somebody]

i came to US about 6 years ago and my family applied for us visa when i was 2 (right now i am 20). As you can see it took my us over 10 years to gain our citizenship.

 

My point is, even if all the illegal immigrants were given citizenships then what do people gain by waiting for 10 years in line. If they know that US gov is weak enough to just hand them citizenship once they enter US illegally and start some protest.

 

And as for the humane point of view, illegal immigrants should know better not to have kids in US when they are illegal because they know that they will be separated at one point. BUT NO, THEY WILL HAVE A KID HERE AND THEN THEY USE THAT AS AN EXCUSE TO STAY IN US. They should be more responsible..

 

 

i just cant talk enough. i could go on for a while but i dont have the time.

 

 

I strongly believe that there should be all of nothing situation. ANd if US comes up with some sort of temporary solution then people who applied legal should gain some benefit.

[TheFaithfulStone]

I'm against illegal immigration.

 

 

:)

 

TFS

[nb: not really a serious argument.]

[Cedars]

Snipped part of post to save space.

 

The main reason usually cited as an example of a positive effect of illegal immigrants is reducing labor costs, especially in agriculture.

 

I believe this underscores one of the most grave problems of current US immigration policies – because legal immigration is limited to far less than immigration demand, reliable information about immigrant numbers and demographics is difficult to obtain, making policy planning difficult.

 

Considering that about 3% of the US population may be illegal aliens, and that education and welfare are the only benefits they can obtain, they consume about 0.5% of total tax receipts.

 

As I said, the benefit is pennies on the dollar for the consumer, but I dont know what the benefit is for the shareholder. Personally I dont think there is any benefit for the consumer, and this is just b.s. as I have watched the price of agricultural goods rising faster than the alleged costs to produce them.

 

There is an illegal presence that has benefited from illegal employment activities, which is vastly different from a demand for immigrants. There is also a number of companies who have hired illegals who present fake documents. Those companies were not looking for illegals, illegals frauded them via these documents and received all the benefits reserved for legal immigrants and citizens. Google Swift meat packing and colorado to see the demand for legal jobs from legal residents.

 

By allowing the illegals to become legal all of the above changes greatly. They will pursue the American dream of better jobs, competing in a employment market that is already losing more than gaining, bringing down the wages of the Americans on the lower ends of the income spectrum. This will raise the remaining solvent Americans tax liability significantly.

 

The pro-amnesty side cannot get around the fact that even if you raise the illegals to legal status, it is a net loss in tax revenue vs expenditure of approximately $2000 per household.

 

I would rather pay 10% more at the grocery store, than the increase in tax liability the idea 'amnesty' would bring upon me. I can choose to eat less fruit. Once its tangled up in the legality of government services/obligation, I lose most of my choices.

 

And the worst thing about this idea is, It wont change a thing in Mexico, Columbia, Honduras, Guatemala, etc.

[CraigD]

As I said, the benefit [of low-cost illegal immigrant labor] is pennies on the dollar for the consumer…

Based on what I’ve (recently, since this thread began) read, I agree. The arguments that very-low cost labor is necessary for the health of the US economy have never been convincing to me – and are as often used to justify paying low wages to US citizens as to justify undocumented sub-minimum wages paid to illegal aliens. I feel that I have incorrectly accepted these arguments in the past, possibly due to organized efforts to “spin” them to me and other members of the public, though I have no substantiated evidence of such efforts, or who might be behind them.

 

Both sides of the illegal immigration debate tend, I think, to place too much attention on the physical presence of illegal immigrants in the US – proposing paramilitary solutions such as fences and walls on one side, and liberalized immigration on the other. The problem is fundamentally, I think, one of lack of laws and law enforcement requiring employers to pay wages than allow low-skill laborers to enjoy a standard of living agreeable to the general public – working 40 hour weeks, housing two or fewer people per bedroom of a dwelling, and other arrangements atypical of those of illegal aliens. The lack of such a standard of living is troubling regardless of whether it is suffered in the US by a large (5+ million) population of illegal aliens, or US citizens, or in other countries, and can be corrected by increasing the incomes of these population and lowering their living costs, through diverse means such as education, employer regulation, and subsidies, although how to accomplish such reforms is not an obvious or easy question.

 

Were such reforms enacted, not only in the US but worldwide, the causes of illegal immigration would, I believe, be reduces, and the symptom with it.

As I said, the benefit [of low-cost illegal immigrant labor] is pennies on the dollar for the consumer, but I dont know what the benefit is for the shareholder.

I’m not familiar with publicly owned enterprises that employ large numbers of illegal aliens, but can’t imagine that paying roughly 40% lower wages, no unemployment insurance or benefits, and other cost savings, is not be beneficial to these companies.

 

On a fundamental and high level, one must chose between a few scenarios explaining the reason for illegal entry into the US:

• that it is done to obtain wages through working for employers who do not adequately verify their workers’ citizenship or immigration status; or
  
• that it is done to obtain access to welfare and education programs.
  
• that it is done in order to have children in the US, conferring on them US citizenship.
  

In my anecdotal experience and that of my wife (a former medical social worker in the Washington, DC metro area, an area with a substantial illegal immigrant population), the first scenario - jobs - appears the dominant one.

[Erasmus00]

The pro-amnesty side cannot get around the fact that even if you raise the illegals to legal status, it is a net loss in tax revenue vs expenditure of approximately $2000 per household.

 

While I don't doubt the claim, where did this number come from?

-Will

[Zythryn]

My position should already be know around here...

I say Nay!

 

The solution is to secure the Homeland by erecting physical barriers and using National Guard troops to secure them. We can't let the terrorists in..

Then we slowly disseminate who has already entered... and at 12+ million thats a daunting task.

 

Drug dealers, pedophiles, criminals , and other undesireables should be deported.

 

Those who are honest and working, with family, should have a chance to receive citizenship.

 

Racoon, I ask once more, as I really am trying to understand your above position.

You have repeatedly offered illogical and sometimes rabid arguments/statements opposing the bill that had been under debate. But then you turn around and suggest your own solution, which is virtually identical to the bill you oppose??

 

Could you please elaborate on what specifically you don't like about the bill? Or offer a solution that is different than what the bill offered?

 

Saying you oppose the bill but offering the same solution is a bit illogical:shrug:

[C1ay]

IMO the issue of immigration, legal or illegal, should be a seperate issue dealt with in a seperate bill from any bill that addresses securing the border. Cut out the fat and get down to the meat of the problem.

[Zythryn]

Clay, that is a position I can understand.

Heck, I think I agree with it, as when addressing the immigration issue, the border MUST be secured first. Addressing securing the border first, in it's own bill would assure this.

However, the former bill did set up benchmarks to insure that securing the border was done first and was working before any of the other solutions were implimented. To me that seems very close to as good as seperate bills.

[C1ay]

And then that bill accumulated amendments, amendments that ultimately stopped it from going anywhere. I'm tired of legislation with amendments, hooks and strings attached. I want to see a border bill with nothing on it but securing the nation. They can hash out the immigration issues later.

[Buffy]

I hate Omnibus Bills (Kitchen Sink Pork bills I call them).

 

Even separating this out though, "securing the border" seems like a vague goal without any reasonably defined objectives, let alone an obvious strategy. Even erecting a massive wall (which as noted above, local US municipalities *don't want* because they bring in business and cheap labor), is not likely to be successful without literally shooting everyone who tries to cross like the old Iron Curtain.

 

Seems to me the only way to "secure the border" is to eliminate the draw by implementing very painful penalties for employers and not even the "Democrat Party" is going to vote for that no matter what you hear on Fox.

 

The truly Laissez Faire solution is to open the borders and give everyone a card to work, and then tax the heck out of them at the paycheck to make it less desirable for non-citizens. We're not talking "being fair" here: there's no reason that we can't make the limitation *monetary*--enforced through US businesses via payroll--rather than trying to control the sieve that is the US border.

 

If we don't "follow the money" and realize that the only way to control the "situation" is to make it less profitable to break the laws--both for the employers and for the illegals--no wall or number of Border Patrol agents per foot of border is going to help.

 

Pocketbook issues,

Buffy