U.S. Immigration Bill

[Racoon]

Personally, I don't think a wall/fence manned is a very good idea. The cost of building/maintaining such a wall would far outweigh the benefit. Not to mention the cost of rounding up all the current illegal immigrants already here.

 

And, as Craig has pointed out, "securing" the border really has nothing to do with terrorism.

 

l

 

Then you're not really thinking about a larger picture in mind are you Erasmuss00??

It'll be too late when what you think turns out wrong.

 

Sure in your mind its merely rhetoric, but what if its not ?? are you ready to accept those consequences because you felt any pre-emptive action unnecassary?

 

 

Report: Al-Qaida nears ability to strike U.S. - U.S. Security - MSNBC.com

 

WASHINGTON - Al-Qaida is stepping up its efforts to sneak terror operatives into the United States and has acquired most of the capabilities it needs to strike here, according to a new U.S. intelligence assessment, The Associated Press has learned.

 

The draft National Intelligence Estimate is expected to paint an ever-more-worrisome portrait of al-Qaida’s ability to use its base along the Pakistan-Afghan border to launch and inspire attacks, even as Bush administration officials say the U.S. is safer nearly six years into the war on terror.

[Racoon]

And, as Craig has pointed out, "securing" the border really has nothing to do with terrorism.

 

-Will

 

Really?

 

Perhaps you can explain and elaborate on that statement..

If you would please

[InfiniteNow]

Most terrorists would not likely be dumb enough to cross without documentation. That's my interpretation. I'm not sure if it parellel's Will's.

 

 

Cheers. :)

 

 

(btw, good post about religion a few minutes ago. seriously. :P )

[Erasmus00]

Then you're not really thinking about a larger picture in mind are you Erasmuss00??

It'll be too late when what you think turns out wrong.

 

Sure in your mind its merely rhetoric, but what if its not ?? are you ready to accept those consequences because you felt any pre-emptive action unnecassary?

 

To quote an earlier post Craig made.

 

The argument that more secure borders reduce the likelihood of terrorist attacks on people and property in the US is a separate one from the above, economic one. To my knowledge, no person known to have attempted of committed a terrorist act in the US has entered the country without a visa. Therefore, it stands to reason that preventing people without visas from entering the country would not reduce the likelihood or terrorist attacks.

 

Also consider that in all this, no one ever considers walling up the Canadian border. I think the terrorism angle in this issue is something of a smokescreen, given that terrorists have had no trouble obtaining legit visas.

-Will

[Erasmus00]

What can you say without Craig?

 

You haven't answered anything

 

To avoid dragging this off topic, which I believe is the immigration problem, I will discuss this tangent with you via private messages, if you like.

-Will

[Cedars]

To quote an earlier post Craig made.

 

 

 

Also consider that in all this, no one ever considers walling up the Canadian border. I think the terrorism angle in this issue is something of a smokescreen, given that terrorists have had no trouble obtaining legit visas.

-Will

 

 

CNN - Panel considers terrorist threat on U.S.-Canada border - January 27, 2000

 

 

Al-Qaida Operative Nabbed Near Mexican Border

[Racoon]

Oh well, this subject is like beating a dead horse, and peoples opinions are unlikely to change.

So aside from the zenophobia/"hate" reasons to deport, here are some numbers

 

14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens...

 

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. FAIR: : Immigration and Welfare

 

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

 

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

 

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! CNN.com - Transcripts

 

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. CNN.com - Transcripts

 

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. CNN.com - Transcripts

 

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens. CNN.com - Transcripts

 

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for

Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. CNN.com - Transcripts

 

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American

wages are caused by the illegal aliens. CNN.com - Transcripts

 

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the United States CNN.com - Transcripts

 

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into

the U. S. from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

 

12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

 

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare?

 

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ". http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

 

So using the LOWEST estimates, the annual cost OF ILLEGAL ALIENS is $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!

 

:shrug:

[sanctus]

First thing either I don't know what zenophobia is or you spelled it wrong and it would be xenophobia.

 

Second those reasons are xenophobia. Did you for example look at the billions spent for the US citizens? I'm sure can't prove it though that they are by so much greater than the number you totalled up is just to infinitesimal when compared.

[TheFaithfulStone]

You're double adding. The $90 billion a year (according to Heritage Foundation for Christ sake's) is all services to illegal aliens.

 

As for the $200 Billion number, that the "suppressed wages" according to a study that Lou Dobb quotes but doesn't cite - he just says it's the "most authoritative" and includes all immigration. Actually - even if said "most authoritative study" is accurate THAT $200 billion dollars is NOT money you pay - it's how much ALL immigrants get shorted yearly on wages. It's a dirty trick trying to add it to cost.

 

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.

 

You mean American citizens? :shrug: :ebomb: I've got no civil response for that, but I know what statements like that smell like.

 

Come back with figures from reliable sources, and then don't add them wrong. I'm sure the number will be PLENTY big enough for you freak out over.

 

Lies, damn lies, and poorly understood statistics,

TFS

[Racoon]

You're double adding. The $90 billion a year (according to Heritage Foundation for Christ sake's) is all services to illegal aliens.

 

Come back with figures from reliable sources, and then don't add them wrong. I'm sure the number will be PLENTY big enough for you freak out over.

 

Lies, damn lies, and poorly understood statistics,

TFS

 

 

Actually, I only copy pasted that aside from my initial sentence.

I saw the double on welfare and social services. :)

 

So do me a favor and realize there are no exact numbers, but a ballpark figure.

How does that estimate float your Boat??

Its all just bullshit though, huh?

 

So why don't you please retort the reasons why Illegal Immigration in its current state is so great!??

 

Don't forget to discount the other reasons on the list while you're at it.

If you please...

[TheFaithfulStone]

I'm not the one who made the claim, Rac. You said that by "conservative estimates" that illegal immigrants "cost us" $383 Billion / yr.

 

I said that at least $290 Billion of your cost either wasn't really appropriate to count as "cost" or was already included elsewhere, and $17 Billion was ridiculous to count among that figure, since it was counting expenditures on American citizens as being "expenditures on Illegals aliens."

 

So at worst, the "conservative estimate" is $110 Billion and at best it's $93 Billion, and those were the only numbers I bothered to verify. I mean, $100 billion dollars (to split the difference) ain't chump change, so let's discuss that figure, if you like.

 

When you're off by a factor of 3 at first blush, you need to rethink your claims. That's not really a "ball park figure," that's a figure that completely wrong.

 

TFS

[Racoon]

I'm not the one who made the claim, Rac. You said that by "conservative estimates" that illegal immigrants "cost us" $383 Billion / yr.

 

I said that at least $290 Billion of your cost either wasn't really appropriate to count as "cost" or was already included elsewhere, and $17 Billion was ridiculous to count among that figure, since it was counting expenditures on American citizens as being "expenditures on Illegals aliens."

 

So at worst, the "conservative estimate" is $110 Billion and at best it's $93 Billion, and those were the only numbers I bothered to verify. I mean, $100 billion dollars (to split the difference) ain't chump change, so let's discuss that figure, if you like.

 

When you're off by a factor of 3 at first blush, you need to rethink your claims. That's not really a "ball park figure," that's a figure that completely wrong.

 

TFS

 

 

Ok , then correct me. Show us your numbers and lets divide the difference.

and Back up your Pro-iIllegal / Ok-to-break-the-Laws stance.

 

You haven't said anything but "you're wrong"

 

So whats right then, Hombre??

I posted numbers and sources, so lets hear and see yours. :shrug:

 

Those numbers have No Validity?

None! Way off mark! Nothing to any of it?? (sarcasm tone)

 

So WTF are you trying to say ?

And make it sound convincing, becuz' the American public is getting tired of being dicked around...

[freeztar]

this is obviously a very emotionally charged issue, lets try to keep things as calm possible. Its easy to react from the gut, but much harder to point to a solution.

 

:shrug:

 

It's a problem that needs a solution. If we are to find the solution, we must meet in the middle and recognize all factors involved. Agreed?

[TheFaithfulStone]

At least $290 Billion of your cost either wasn't really appropriate to count as "cost" or was already included elsewhere, and $17 Billion was ridiculous to count among that figure, since it was counting expenditures on American citizens as being "expenditures on Illegals aliens."

 

Therefore, the actual figure you provide is closer to $100 Billion. Not the $383 you stated. I used your sources. I used your figures, and read the caveats around them.

 

This particular little aside isn't ABOUT illegal immigration, it's ABOUT you claiming that it costs $383 Billion a year. It doesn't.

 

You added wrong. That is all. I don't really care about the "American People" getting dicked around, and I'm not really interested in convincing you otherwise.

 

You claim: Illegals cost American Taxpayers $383 billion / yr.

I claim: Even taking your numbers at face value, they simply don't add up to that. Your claim is unsupported.

 

Your implicit claim - that immigration is bad because it costs you a LOT of money - now requires clarification. Is it AS bad since it doesn't cost you AS much?

 

TFS

[Racoon]

Therefore, the actual figure you provide is closer to $100 Billion. Not the $383 you stated. I used your sources. I used your figures, and read the caveats around them.

 

This particular little aside isn't ABOUT illegal immigration, it's ABOUT you claiming that it costs $383 Billion a year. It doesn't.

 

You added wrong. That is all. I don't really care about the "American People" getting dicked around, and I'm not really interested in convincing you otherwise.

 

You claim: Illegals cost American Taxpayers $383 billion / yr.

I claim: Even taking your numbers at face value, they simply don't add up to that. Your claim is unsupported.

 

Your implicit claim - that immigration is bad because it costs you a LOT of money - now requires clarification. Is it AS bad since it doesn't cost you AS much?

 

TFS

 

Still No links and or Numbers on your part

Why am I not surprised ??

 

You keep attacking My claim. what about defending yours??

For a change..

 

OK subract a few Billion..

Fine,

The math isn't perfect but its in the Hundreds of Billions..

 

So justify it!

Can you do that?

 

C'mon. you're not putting up a great Pro-Illegal defense.

Why is it so important that we allow Illegals to flood the nation ?

[TheFaithfulStone]

ARGH.. Strawman, strawman, strawman.

 

Racoon! You're not off by a paltry few billion dollars! You're off by $290 BILLION DOLLARS.

 

To illustrate - if $383 Bln were the correct number, and we actually had to PAY it would be the fourth largest item in the federal budget - behind only Defense ($699 Bln), Social Security ($586 Bln), and Medicare ($393 Bln) (edit: Those are from the wiki article on the 2007 federal budget.)

 

I'm using YOUR links and numbers.

 

I have a question for you.

 

At what level of financial impact is illegal immigration not a problem? If it cost us a mere $1 million a year - would you then "let it go?"

 

If there isn't such a level, then it doesn't matter HOW much it costs - and discussing it is pointless - we need to move on to what the REAL problem with illegal immigration is. If there is such a level, then it stands to reason that illegal immigrants that cost $100 billion are a much less serious problem than immigrants that cost $400 billion.

 

TFS

[Buffy]

So justify it!

Can you do that?

He did Rac. Put your beer down and stop yelling.

C'mon. you're not putting up a great Pro-Illegal defense. Why is it so important that we allow Illegals to flood the nation?

I don't think he's actually defending it. This is not a black-and-white issue. You might want to ask Mr. Bush why he wants to do this.

 

If you think about it, a few hundred billion might not be bad if they add more to our GDP. We could be sending those jobs south of the border and then we'd get nothing.

 

I think you'll find that the answer to this question is complex, and simplifying it to "shoot the bastards if they won't go back on their own" leaves a lot of problems unsolved.

 

Complexity is for liberals, and apparently, that's a good thing,

Buffy