U.S. Immigration Bill

[CraigD]

14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens...

 

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.

Racoon, you appear to have copied 13 of you 14 points from Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare?. Unless you are Frosty Wooldridge, you should edit your post to credit his article. :shrug:

 

IMHO, they are good and interesting points, even if, as I believe, Wooldridge is unreasonable and jingoistic in his ultimate rhetoric and conclusions. However, as previous posts have noted, they should not be added together to produce a cost estimate. Wooldridge doesn’t do this in his article.

 

I’m especially interested in the “$200 billion Dollars a year in lost-suppressed American wages” figure, because it is the largest figure given, and seems central to the two sides of the debate, one side (which includes George W. Bush) claiming illegal alien labor is good for the US economy, the other (which includes Wooldridge) claiming it is bad. I’ve been unable to find an explanation of the term “lost-suppressed wages”, or details about how the figure was calculated.

 

I found this figure, from the previously linked Lou Dobbs Tonight, 4/1/2006:

Meanwhile, employers hire cheap labor with virtually no risk. The Government Accountability Office found only three employers fined in 2004 for illegal hiring, down from 417 in 1999.

very dramatic, and grounds to reevaluate my belief that the present Bush administration is competent and ethical in making immigration policy and enforcing immigration law. It appears also to support my opinion that the most significant factor underlying current illegal alien problems lies in the exploitation of this illegal resource to realize greater profits.

 

Like Racoon, I too may be beating a dead horse in repeat a previously stated opinion, but my opinion remains that the most effective solution is to enforce existing and pass more severe laws making the business practice of employing illegal aliens a riskier business tactic, especially if combined with existing and improved trade policies to improve wages in Mexico and other countries of origin of illegal aliens, rather than the paramilitary approach of attempting to seal the US against unauthorized entry.

[Racoon]

ARGH.. Strawman, strawman, strawman.

 

Racoon! You're not off by a paltry few billion dollars! You're off by $290 BILLION DOLLARS.

 

To illustrate - if $383 Bln were the correct number, and we actually had to PAY it would be the fourth largest item in the federal budget - behind only Defense ($699 Bln), Social Security ($586 Bln), and Medicare ($393 Bln) (edit: Those are from the wiki article on the 2007 federal budget.)

 

I'm using YOUR links and numbers.

 

I have a question for you.

 

At what level of financial impact is illegal immigration not a problem? If it cost us a mere $1 million a year - would you then "let it go?"

 

If there isn't such a level, then it doesn't matter HOW much it costs - and discussing it is pointless - we need to move on to what the REAL problem with illegal immigration is! If there is such a level, then it stands to reason that illegal immigrants that cost $100 billion are a much less serious problem than immigrants that cost $400 billion.

 

TFS

 

So what your saying is Illegals using Medicaid and SocialSecurity and SocialServices don't really count into the numbers if you subtract them?

 

And the Wage suppresion and Incarceration aren't an issue either?

Drugs , Crime, Potential Terrorist threats?

 

What is the REAL problem TFS??

You stressed the term "REAL"

So for Gods's sake already, fricking spill it!!

 

 

What Is it!!?>?

[TheFaithfulStone]

No, I'm saying this.

 

A) The $200 Bln dollar figure is kind of iffy. I don't know where it came from or what it represents. It's not really possible to add it into the "costs" because it isn't like you'd get that money if you WERE to kick out all the illegal aliens. It's inappropriate to add it into the cost column because A) There's no support for the number itself. and :shrug: It cannot go in the "gain" column if you remove it from the "lost" column because it's not clear how it's being "lost."

 

:) The $90 Billion dollar figure from the Heritage Foundation includes all Medicare and Social Services expenditures - which you have included separately,so there is no need to add it in.

 

C) If immigration were "free" or "paid" society, would you still have a problem with it?

 

TFS

[CraigD]

So what your saying is Illegals using Medicaid and SocialSecurity and SocialServices don't really count into the numbers if you subtract them?

I’m unable to understand Racoon’s question about “really counting into the numbers”, but should note that while, depending on various state laws, illegal aliens are usually eligible for Medicaid and other state and federally funded social services (significantly among them public education), the requirement for eligibility for Supplemental Social Security (SSI) benefits (see Understanding SSI -- SSI Spotlight on SSI Benefits for Aliens) effectively prohibits illegal aliens from obtaining them. Retirement and disability Social Security (OASDI) benefits, and Medicare (HI) are available only to people who have paid Social Security taxes, or, in the case of Medicare, purchased certain benefits.

[Racoon]

No, I'm saying this.

 

TFS

 

 

You're not answering my question(S).

(I don't care how many obscure Buffy refferences are mentioned!)

 

WHY!??

Why are we doing it??

"Oh, the rich are exploiting them.. they control our system.. seems Ok BS"

 

Why are millions of Americans Pissed about it TFS!??

 

Show me Your Numbers.

Can you do that?

 

Can you articulate your own debate?

 

You take the lowest end of the numbers given.. 100 Billion .. I take the highest number given.. 400 Billion..

That means Illegals are still costing around $200 Billion regardless..

 

I thought they were supposed to be Saving money for the Americans..

Thats why they pick the strawberries and clean the Valu-8 motels, Right??

 

You still, like IN, have not provided 1 single shred of evidence on Pro-Illegal Immigration and why its so great for the average American...

 

Can you please STFU about my links and provide your own refferences and rationale?

 

My guess is your next post starts with No and backtracks further.

I can come up with new links and stats..

 

Can you come up with anything supporting what you are saying!?

Please..

So I can understand the truth that you speak. Enlighten me , and others , if you would be so kind, sir..

[freeztar]

I thought they were supposed to be Saving money for the Americans..

Thats why they pick the strawberries and clean the Valu-8 motels, Right??

 

Calmate mi hermano...

They are here for a reason, because we pay them to be here.

You still, like IN, have not provided 1 single shred of evidence on Pro-Illegal Immigration and why its so great for the average American...

 

I don't think anyone here is PRO-illegal immigration

Can you please STFU about my links and provide your own refferences and rationale?

 

Why is this thread so hostile?

 

:shrug:

[TheFaithfulStone]

WHY!??

Why are we doing it??

 

Letting them come in? I don't know, but I suspect it saves somebody a bunch of money...

 

 

Why are millions of Americans Pissed about it TFS!??

 

I don't know that.

 

Show me Your Numbers.

Can you do that?

 

No. I've got no problem with most of yours - just the two big ones.

 

Can you articulate your own debate?

 

Whatcha mean?

 

You take the lowest end of the numbers given.. 100 Billion .. I take the highest number given.. 400 Billion..

That means Illegals are still costing around $200 Billion regardless..

 

Okay - so what's the number you would be happy with them costing?

 

I thought they were supposed to be Saving money for the Americans..

Thats why they pick the strawberries and clean the Valu-8 motels, Right??

 

Damn, dude, that's harsh.

 

You still, like IN, have not provided 1 single shred of evidence on Pro-Illegal Immigration and why its so great for the average American...

 

I doubt that it is. Of course, I'm against Illegal Immigration. I'm also pro-amnesty. Because I think it's the only course of action where the cure isn't either a) impossible or :shrug: worse than than the disease.

 

Can you please STFU about my links and provide your own refferences and rationale?

 

My guess is your next post starts with No and backtracks further.

I can come up with new links and stats..

 

Can you come up with anything supporting what you are saying!?

Please..

So I can understand the truth that you speak. Enlighten me , and others , if you would be so kind, sir..

 

Yes, I've got a supporting statement. If you add up the numbers in your previous post that describe unique unduplicated costs of illegal immigrants they do not add up to $383 Billion.

 

In fact when I did add them up I got: $45.7 billion.

 

TFS

[Racoon]

Why is this thread so hostile?

 

:shrug:

 

 

Becauz' its a volitile topic in America.. Take a look around Freezy.

Its divicive.

You have much of regular Joe and Jane of America on one side .. and then Millions of Illegals with Capiialist exploiters and bleedingheart humanitarians on the other ..

 

maybe its a bit personal with a couple members here.

They don't see eye to eye. and thats fine.

Good in fact..

 

Becuz' it always gives you something to look forward to and learn from! :)

Differences of opinion.. Makes Democracy great!

 

Unless some people always harp and never actually say anything..

Never actually support their reasons, but continually bash others without providing alternative information. :)

 

Yeah, Billions of People.. We're not all going to agree.. :D

Are We?

[Racoon]

Forget it!

 

TFS has won me and worn me down with his empirical data.

 

He and IN are completely right. despite their lack of any statistics or factual base..

Just let every fracking person in who can jump the border or swim a gulf.

 

America is better off for it.

 

I'll take their word for it.

 

:shrug:

[TheFaithfulStone]

If I have two apples, and you have two apples, and i have the same two apples, we don't have six apples. It's as simple as that. That's all I'm saying. That's it. That's all there is to it. There is nothing more to it than that.

 

I'm not even sure where you got the whole "any body who can swim can come in," thing.

 

I'm not even saying your numbers are WRONG, I'm just saying you've added them wrong.

 

TFS

[Freddy]

I do not support amnesty or US citizenship for people who came here illegally. One reason is on principle, that people who break the law are not rewarded for doing so. Also, I have had personal problems with illegal immigrants who break US laws. I know several contractors who employ only US citizens who cannot compete with contractors who employ illegal immigrants, which is illegal, at lower wages.

[Buffy]

I do not support amnesty or US citizenship for people who came here illegally. One reason is on principle, that people who break the law are not rewarded for doing so.

I think its important to realize that many who support some sort of Immigration Bill *agree* with this. The question is "what is the penalty?"

 

Here's an analogy:

 

What should the penalty be for driving 70 in a 55 zone? Should you be thrown in jail for a year and lose your license permanently?

 

Some people think so.

 

Do you feel a penalty this severe is "unfair?"

 

If so, does that mean that you are "for breaking the law?"

 

This is why this debate has degraded into meaningless mudslinging: Deporting everyone who is here illegally is *not an option*. So the question is "what is the appropriate penalty?" Lets levy it and move on.

 

Really what this means is what Craig says a few posts above and many of us have said here earlier: enforce the laws we have, but if they're impractical, lets modify them so we uphold the *spirit* of the law.

 

Being practical,

Buffy