Flood/no flood

[jp3089]

Hi linda. Good to read you post.

 

A miracle is by definition not explainable by science.

Exactly. Therefore, we have two conclusions that we can draw about the flood:

 

1. It never really happened, which would debunk the credibility of the Bible and of God.

 

2. It did happen, despite the fact that it is not "physically" possible.

 

If we absolutely rule out God, then #1 is, of course, the correct answer. However, if we allow God into the equation, then #2 becomes a factor as well.

 

Blessings,

 

JP

[jp3089]

Hi fish. Good point. Let me comment quickly.

 

By physically impossible I mean that there just is not enough water in existence to cover the globe. There are too many scientific counter-examples of a global flood and the Biblical story of Noah (See my earlier post) for the event to be conceived as factual. By saying that the event defys logic and science therefore it must be an act of a devine nature, is pre-supposing there is a supernatural being out ther pulling the strings much more so than me saying that it defys logic and scientific principles so it must not be true.

You're exactly right. I wasn't giving it as proof for God. I was merely trying to show that your argument started with the presupposition that God did NOT exist. That's all. But you are quite right in your assertion.

 

Blessings,

 

JP

[jp3089]

Hi Tormod. Here's some comments.

 

We do not need to disprove the existence of any god in order to rule divinity out of a scientific discussion. If everything that we cannot disprove should be taken into account, then no discussion would ever get anywhere.

I agree 100%.

 

By definition, all things in our universe are bound by the laws of nature. Nothing can escape that and still exist within our universe. There are some exceptions, however - it is not known what happens to matter inside a black hole (although we are starting to see the beginning of a new era in this field) - but we can make deductions, and test them, and in general use the scientific method to study them.

I am following you.

 

The argument that "a divine power is a possibilty" is simply a tautology. Yes, it is a possibility, but it is not a necessity. Do a search for "pink unicorn" here at the forums for some interesting views on this. You might have to do some digging.

I would agree, except that I feel that there is evidence for ID, which points towards God. If there was absolutely no evidence, than I think we could rule it out completely.

 

Blessings,

 

JP

[sanctus]

 

Thanks Sanctus! What a cool name! I think it means "holy" in Greek.

 

 

JP

 

Sanctus means holy in latin (maybe as well in greek I don't know), but didn't you notice the devil horns and the devil beard I draw on my avatar? It is to show that I believe holyness so much that even the devil could be holy(if he existed), ie holyness is nonsense to me.

Actually I didn't think that far when I chose the name I was just listenig to a song calle sanctus when I found this forum....

[sanctus]

Hi again Sanctus! I'll do my best to clarify what I'm trying to get across.

 

Biblically? Conscience. (That isn't a valid answer for a science forum, though). But Biblically, it would be conscience. Cain KNEW it would be wrong to murder Abel. How did he know? Conscience. Again, this is not a scientific answer, but a Biblical one. The question posed by Sanctus was a Biblical one, so that's why it was answered Biblically.

 

Now, can you give as well a scientific answer? I wanted to see if you had one, as the biblical positive answer was quite obvious to exist; I didn't formulate it well.

God will never contradict himself. Therefore, God will never tell someone to kill someone else just for kicks.

Isn't one comandement: YOu shall not kill? Therefore if god orders to kill he contradicted himself!

 

That brings up a whole new discussion: Just War Theory. I have to be honest, among Christians that very question has not yet been resolved.

 

I guess I start a new thread on this one!

 

Really? To me, genocide will always be evil. Slavery will always be evil. Blind, pointless murder will always be evil.

 

Aliens attacking us, we kill them in self-defense, we did genocide is it still an absolute evil?

[Fishteacher73]

Didnt't God tell Abraham(I may be wrong on the name, but the story is in the bible if I don't remember the individual's name) to sacrafice his son? Also didn't he just like to screw with Job?

These seem to be contradictory to some being so caring that he allowed his son to be killed to absolve us of our sins?

 

I think we stray from the original intent, but if god's consistency is used as proof that he exists, then there are plenty of counter-examples against this consistency and compasion in theologic sources (ie The Bible). While I can not disprove the existence of a god, but there are enough contradictions in the source marterial that allow for the dismissal of the Christian god as described in the bible. (This is NOT an attack upon your (or anyone else's) faith jp. But meerly a logical deduction citing the same source you use to prove the existence).

[maddog]

Therefore, we have two conclusions that we can draw about the flood:

 

1. It never really happened, which would debunk the credibility of the Bible and of God.

2. It did happen, despite the fact that it is not "physically" possible.

 

You forgot a third possible solution, JP. That is that a flood could have been a "natural"

event. This does not prove nor disprove God. Believe as you wish. A flood as a natural

disaster whether local (to eurasia) or global can support the myth. For a global event, it

would be more likely that either an asteroid or comet was the source. Best method I

have heard where (a comet) like Shoemaker-Levy did to Jupiter broke up as it was entering

the atmosphere. A local event could have been the breaking of the Bhosporus, thereby

flooding the Black Sea or something similar. Such a historical event would definitely be

taken as the "hand of God" by the indigenous population... ;)

 

Maddog

[IrishEyes]

Didnt't God tell Abraham(I may be wrong on the name, but the story is in the bible if I don't remember the individual's name) to sacrafice his son?

Yes, God did, in fact, ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. However, Abraham did not sacrifice his son, as God provided an animal for sacrifice instead.

 

Also didn't he just like to screw with Job?

No, God didn't just like to screw with Job. God did, however, allow Satan to screw with Job, in an attempt to show Satan that Job's love for Him was not dependant on wealth, reputation, family, or health.

 

You did pretty good though, Fish.

[lindagarrette]

Yes, God did, in fact, ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. However, Abraham did not sacrifice his son, as God provided an animal for sacrifice instead.

It's my understanding that God's intention was to find out if Abraham was a true believer, which, for some reason, being omniscient, he did not know. Apparently Abraham was on the verge of abandonimg his own moral values to follow this horrendous command. Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.