Are older people capable of rational thought?

[Peacemaker]

I once read something talking about what happens to a person's brain as they age. It was talking about how free radicals eventually damaged a certain portion of the person's brain (I think called the hyptholomus or some such) responsible for storing long term memories.

 

The study seemed to indicate that it was not known what the precise effects of this would be and that people with such damaged brains still appeared to be able to function in every day life.

 

We are all familiar with the saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and that older people are often considered stubborn compared to younger people. It seems likely that there is some kind of connection.

 

What if it was simply the case that as people get older they become less able to learn complex new ideas and adapt to new ways of thinking? I mean to some degree it seems to be accepted that this is true, but the question is how severe is it really?

 

What if older people could only make minor inferences from things that they already knew, and when exposed to new ideas they were forced to straw man them into something that already made sense to them?

 

Imagine the irony of debating with an older person who became angry and frustrated when you persisted in trying to explain a new idea (perhaps one that is superior to their thinking, but that they failed to understand while their brain was still intact) only because he was physically in capable of understanding what you were trying to say... ie you were fighting a lost cause...

 

Imagine how impaired we would be as a race if our buisnesses and governments are being run by people physically incapable of adaptation?

Careful, you, too will be old at some point in the future. I am fifty three years old, Let's see if you can impress me with your difficult ideas...and then I'll give you an idea to wrestle with. :-)

[Buffy]

You're never smarter than you are when you're sixteen. Its all downhill from there.

 

Woe to those who can't see the power of irrational logic, :shrug:

Buffy

[Peacemaker]

Another point - new research shows that the belief that neurons die off after a certain age is erroneous (Neurogenesis). Personally I could have told them that for the simple and very logical reason that we couldn't learn anything new, if we didn't make the mental connections necessary.

 

Last point - I think the problem is one of attitude. I believe that aging is just becoming world weary. In our youth we want everything in buckets because we are starved of experience, rather than old and jaded. Depression is I believe really the key to memory loss. We don't learn because we don't open up and put the effort in. Giving up effort is what keeps us ignorant or makes us ignorant. Positive emotion keeps us in love with life and learning - negative emotion is cutting loose the ties (neural connections) that ensure we see and build new pathways through life (knowledge is putting or bringing two and two together - ignorance is refusing to 'see' and laziness, 'make' the link).

 

Well said

[TZK]

And who tells you I don't have both!?

 

What really happened is simple, I was able to see what they meant but it took a sledgehammer to get in what I was trying to tell them.

 

Uh because your not him, and you are making a silly claim? The human mind doesn't work that way... If someone doesn't accept something you say it's because there is something else they know that contradicts it. You said he went off about something else that you didn't think mattered. This is a dead giveaway. You also said he acted like he figured it out in the end. This is also a dead giveaway.

 

Here is a neutral example of what I mean.

 

Imagine a farmer and albert einstein talking about weather effects. The farmer says "Well ya know when dem dere rain clouds come around it will wash out some of the soil". Then albert einstein gets it in his head that for some reason, the attributes of the molecules and how they will therefore interact will prevent this from happening. The farmer tells him he is crazy and einstein tries to explain why he thinks that. Then eisnstein goes and gets a chalkboard and writes out a ton of formulas. An hour later he comes to a realization and realizes that the molecules will interact in a way that will produce what the farmer has seen.

 

You are the farmer talking about how you tried to hammer this idea into einsteins head. It is a silly thing to say because you did not understand his point of view. Not that you couldn't have if you tried, but you didn't think you should bother. And you cannot condemn this type of behavior altogether because there is no gaurantee that the other person doesn't know something that really does alter the outcome.

[Qfwfq]

I'd say you're the one that's supposing far too much about me and about what I didn't say.

Uh because your not him, and you are making a silly claim?

And he isn't me. And neither are you. And are you making a silly claim?

 

If someone doesn't accept something you say it's because there is something else they know that contradicts it.

No, they knew nothing that I didn't and weren't understanding what I said.

 

You said he went off about something else that you didn't think mattered. This is a dead giveaway. You also said he acted like he figured it out in the end. This is also a dead giveaway.

I didn't say I didn't think it mattered. It wasn't the solution to the problem. Sorting it out themselves was not what happened in my case, at all. I talked about cases in which, when my words finally penetrated and they saw there was sense in them, they acted like they had to explain it to me.

 

It is a silly thing to say because you did not understand his point of view. Not that you couldn't have if you tried, but you didn't think you should bother. And you cannot condemn this type of behavior altogether because there is no gaurantee that the other person doesn't know something that really does alter the outcome.

I fully understood what they said, and without the slightest difficulty, and if they knew something that really does alter the outcome, why did they not get it across to me instead of finally understanding my pov?

 

What makes you think you understand things I don't and must teach me, and how do you hope to do so by babbling in this confused manner?

 

My balls are itching and I've no more time to waste.

[TZK]

My balls are itching and I've no more time to waste.

 

Exactly... pretty much all you had to say.

 

Also if the other scenario wasn't clear, I think a better one would be if you seperated the person who invented the CRT into 2 different people. You have one farmer who claims tvs work just like a plow on a field, and another that understands the physics involved. The physicist would reason around a big loop to come to the conclusion that the crt did actually function in a similar manner to a plow, at which point the farmer would express frustration that the physicist "did not understand what he was saying and then tried to act like he figured it out when my words finally sunk in".

[Michaelangelica]

I once read something talking about what happens to a person's brain as they age.

What utter crap and ageism prejudice

the brain continues to grow new cells throughout life.

 

My question would be

Are young people capable of rational thought?

 

Given the adolescent male driving record I would suggest not.

[Qfwfq]

Exactly...

and do you think it was by pure chance?

 

Also if the other scenario wasn't clear, I think a better one would be if you seperated the person who invented the CRT into 2 different people. You have one farmer who claims tvs work just like a plow on a field, and another that understands the physics involved. The physicist would reason around a big loop to come to the conclusion that the crt did actually function in a similar manner to a plow, at which point the farmer would express frustration that the physicist "did not understand what he was saying and then tried to act like he figured it out when my words finally sunk in".

pretty much all you had to say.

 

The other scenario was clear and I've been hearing the same kind of argument you make, throughout the past couple of decades. I'm able to tell when someone was just plain not thinking and then unaware that they got the idea because I had been saying it.

 

You still haven't shown me what makes you think you understand things I don't and must teach me. Did you not realize that I was paraphrasing you about that, just like the itchy balls?

[TZK]

and do you think it was by pure chance?

 

pretty much all you had to say.

 

The other scenario was clear and I've been hearing the same kind of argument you make, throughout the past couple of decades. I'm able to tell when someone was just plain not thinking and then unaware that they got the idea because I had been saying it.

 

You still haven't shown me what makes you think you understand things I don't and must teach me. Did you not realize that I was paraphrasing you about that, just like the itchy balls?

 

You may have been hearing but you certainly have not been listening...

 

Your attitude clearly demonstrates a lack of enlightenment, wisdom, maturity whatever you want to call it. "You still haven't shown me what makes you think you understand things I don't and must teach me." This statement is a dead giveaway. As socrates pointed out oh so long ago, the wise man knows he knows nothing. That doesn't mean a person doesn't make arguments or question each other's proposition. It means that a person who thinks they are entitled to be right for some convaluted reason, all reason aside, is a fool.

 

You are very self centered and insist on creating scenarios which simply do not happen, but rather are common interpretations of someone with your personality and maturity level dealing with someone who (temporarily or not) disagrees with what you have to say. There is no such thing as a person who "does not think".

 

Yes I realized you were paraphrasing me, though I think you must not have realized I was implying that people say their balls itch when they have lost an argument and do not want to admit it...

 

What utter crap and ageism prejudice

the brain continues to grow new cells throughout life.

 

My question would be

Are young people capable of rational thought?

 

Given the adolescent male driving record I would suggest not.

 

You do realize that people age and go through changes correct? ...Changes as in, net changes given cells grown and lost? Go get your brain scanned and compare it to one from a long time ago.

[Qfwfq]

You may have been hearing but you certainly have not been listening...

Sez you.

 

Your attitude clearly demonstrates a lack of enlightenment, wisdom, maturity whatever you want to call it.

It only demonstrates that you are supposing too much, not only about me but even about the episodes in my experience that I had initially mentioned.

 

What does the sentence "You still haven't shown me what makes you think you understand things I don't and must teach me." Have to do with the wise man knowing he knows nothing? The only thing it has to do with is the fact that one can say much the same the other way around. Just as trivially and gratuitously. What guarantees you I don't "know something that really does alter the outcome"?

 

It means that a person who thinks they are entitled to be right for some convaluted reason, all reason aside, is a fool.

What convoluted reason makes you think you are entitled to be right? And what makes you suppose I think that I am?

 

You are very self centered and insist on creating scenarios which simply do not happen, but rather are common interpretations of someone with your personality and maturity level dealing with someone who (temporarily or not) disagrees with what you have to say.

Just what makes you presume to know about me?

 

There is no such thing as a person who "does not think".

I've seen plenty of people who simply aren't in the habit of thinking. I don't mean only young people but it simply isn't only old people.

 

Yes I realized you were paraphrasing me, though I think you must not have realized I was implying that people say their balls itch when they have lost an argument and do not want to admit it...

That is not the only case in which someone's balls might itch. A good reason is when it really isn't worth it. If you had any sense at all, you would not have replied to my use of your itching balls expression.

 

You do realize that people age and go through changes correct? ...Changes as in, net changes given cells grown and lost? Go get your brain scanned and compare it to one from a long time ago.

Quit the personal attacks. Respect Michael and apologize to him immediately, or you'll get yourself in trouble around here. Just who do you think you are?

[TZK]

“You cannot teach a person anything; you can only help him find it within himself.”

 

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) Italian physicist and astronomer.

 

Wow, I was going to bother responding to any more of your drivel, but after reading it in a message it just isn't something that can go unanswered...

 

I don't know what personal attacks you think you are talking about, nor do I know where you think you get the right to censor other people's opinions. It is a free country, you can create opinion nazi forum sites all day long as can I but don't think for a minute that people are going to stop disagreeing with you voluntarily just to be a part of your sad little mindless club. If this is how things are around here it is clear that this site is very deceptive in it's advertised nature and that perhaps something needs to be done about that.

[Qfwfq]

Which country, Krim? And who has censored you here in this thread? You haven't been prevented from stating your opinions, don't whine if others argue against them and underline the weak points. You will only obtain trouble in return for your continued personal attacks.

 

BTW I hadn't talked about teaching those people anything at all, you have simply imagined what you wanted about the episodes, without knowing anything of them. Who said I was talking about complex philosophical matters that these people disagreed with me about?

[Chacmool]

Wow, I was going to bother responding to any more of your drivel, but after reading it in a message it just isn't something that can go unanswered...

TZK, your self-righteous attitude and snide remarks are not in keeping with the spirit of amicable debate here at Hypography. Please tone it down and show some respect.

[TZK]

Which country, Krim? And who has censored you here in this thread? You haven't been prevented from stating your opinions, don't whine if others argue against them and underline the weak points. You will only obtain trouble in return for your continued personal attacks.

 

BTW I hadn't talked about teaching those people anything at all, you have simply imagined what you wanted about the episodes, without knowing anything of them. Who said I was talking about complex philosophical matters that these people disagreed with me about?

 

All you do is ignore my points and repost the same arguments over and over, but I don't care about that since it is pretty typical behavior. When you get mad and start stomping your feet and pounding your chest threatening to get someone in trouble because they disagree with you then attempted censoring is exactly what you are doing. It is just a more subtle way to try and do it.

 

The quote isn't that hard to interpret if you keep an open mind. It means you can't hammer something into someone's head, all you can do is suggest to a person ways to rearrange their own knowledge so that an idea makes sense to them.

[sanctus]

You don't listen to mods, so listen to admins at least:

 

If one looks at your post in the start of this thread, one sees that you are very well able of normal discussion, so stop getting heated up as soon as anyone disagrees without and continue like you did in the start and you will be very welcome here.

Just to make it clear it is not about what you say but how you say it, for example your answer to MichaelAngelica

 

You do realize that people age and go through changes correct? ...Changes as in, net changes given cells grown and lost? Go get your brain scanned and compare it to one from a long time ago.

 

Could just as well have been said in the following way for example: you have to agree that aging changes people. So if one makes a brain scan when he/she is 20 and one at 70 for sure there would be (maybe even major) changes to be seen.

 

Same meaning as your post but no attacking anyone.

 

You can contact anyone of the staff if you feel mistreated...

[Qfwfq]

threatening to get someone in trouble because they disagree with you

No. Only because of personal attacks and reckless behaviour. Control your temper. Anyway thanks for portraying me as King Kong, it feels soooo thrilling...

 

The quote isn't that hard to interpret if you keep an open mind. It means you can't hammer something into someone's head, all you can do is suggest to a person ways to rearrange their own knowledge so that an idea makes sense to them.

Now what makes you assume I had any difficulty interpreting that quote of Galileo? I actually agree with it but it doesn't prove your point, it's irrelevant to what I was talking about.

[paigetheoracle]

It has occurred to me that aging really is a question of attitude. True, as people get older they do become more stubborn but that is I believe because they are trying to hold onto life, including their mental faculties, but are swept along on the conveyor belt of existence to their inevitable end (Nobody gets out of here alive).

 

What the Dutch have found is that people with Alzheimers are suffering from either toxic material in their bodies or toxic thoughts in their head, poisoning their attitude towards life. What I've personally found is that apathy leads me to give up on life and that when I do, my memory goes as well (use it or lose it). Depression means never having to say sorry - because you can't remember what the word is or why you should associate it

with anything. A positive attitude towards life means you don't give up physically or mentally on it but fight to survive and enjoy life until the inevitable happens. Active people survive longer and stay healthier in other words.

 

What I see is that we all come into this world full of youthful enthusiasm and that blow after blow discourages us and that this ages us mentally (makes us give up on effort - doing things for the hell of it becomes 'Oh, not again!' when they fail/go wrong. We become too serious and this kills our love of life and this sends us into decline, mentally).

 

By the way stubborness can be a positive trait as it ensures taking time to check your work and see things in detail, that youth races by after another big thrill (The God of small things/ Small is beautiful too).

 

Mental decline can make it harder to grasp new things but not impossible (read up on Neurogenesis). The old are capable of logical thought and are more rational than the young but you're right, it is this left brain reasoning that makes people blind to leaps of faith in the field of ideas and actions (See Dr Allan Snyders work (Univ. of Australia?) on autistic savants and how magnetic pulses to the left side of the brain can restore such mental blindness, even if only temporarily).