Are older people capable of rational thought?

[TZK]

You don't listen to mods, so listen to admins at least:

 

If one looks at your post in the start of this thread, one sees that you are very well able of normal discussion, so stop getting heated up as soon as anyone disagrees without and continue like you did in the start and you will be very welcome here.

Just to make it clear it is not about what you say but how you say it, for example your answer to MichaelAngelica

 

 

 

Could just as well have been said in the following way for example: you have to agree that aging changes people. So if one makes a brain scan when he/she is 20 and one at 70 for sure there would be (maybe even major) changes to be seen.

 

Same meaning as your post but no attacking anyone.

 

You can contact anyone of the staff if you feel mistreated...

 

I agree that you shouldn't insult people in debate... but I don't see how that was insulting especially considering it was in response to:

 

What utter crap and ageism prejudice

the brain continues to grow new cells throughout life.

 

My question would be

Are young people capable of rational thought?

 

Given the adolescent male driving record I would suggest not.

 

I refer not just to the tone, but also with respect to the fact that michael seems to be indicating that he does not believe in brain decay over time.

 

So if you are indicating that you think I am being sarcastic, I don't see how since he clearly says he believes the brain doesn't decay and to think otherwise is ageism crap. I am merely asking if he agrees with the idea that people go through changes as they age. It is hard to deny this is true, but to me it also seems hard to deny that this indicates brain decay is possible and likely, so I must start at the beginning to see where his disagreement is.

 

If you are referring to the command form of telling him to get his brain scanned, I don't see how that is particuarly insulting either... It merely suggests a way to see a difference in his own body between himself now and himself at an earlier time?

 

I think you are just trying to find justification for Q's anger where there is none... There is a great element of subjectivity to deciding who is being abrasive in a debate and who is not.

 

If you empower someone to eliminate debate participants based on when they think the other person is being abrasive, AND that person participates in debates, that person can simply define anyone who disagrees with them as being abrasive and eliminate all opponents. Whats the difference between Q's behavior and a mod just saying you are still arguing even though I already explained it to you therefore you are being disrespectful? You could just as easily say that... but it would be unfair to people that came here under the impression that they could discuss things here...

 

Now what makes you assume I had any difficulty interpreting that quote of Galileo? I actually agree with it but it doesn't prove your point, it's irrelevant to what I was talking about.

 

Because you JUST SAID that you had to hammer an idea into a students head before he understood and then he had the audacity to act like he figured it out himself. This clearly demonstrates belief in the direct opposite of what the quote alludes to. Not that quotes can prove arguments anyways, since they are just something that a third party said. But I figured it might carry more weight than it should with someone like you.

 

Also my description of your behavior hardly characterizes you as King Kong when you are doing it over the internet... I seriously doubt you would go around trying to intimidate people out of their opinions in person.

[Qfwfq]

First of all, I'm debating in this thread like any member and that's what my first post here was. Sanctus stepped in as staff; I had put up with your attacks against me and pointed out that against Michael and continued to debate and this is how we do things. Why do you insist that I'm abusing of priviledges to have the better in the debate?

 

Because you JUST SAID that you had to hammer an idea into a students head before he understood and then he had the audacity to act like he figured it out himself. This clearly demonstrates belief in the direct opposite of what the quote alludes to.

It does not demonstrate this, you are and have been demonstrating misunderstanding of my post, which you attacked. Go look at it and understand it, it's a wise thing to do before criticizing something, as well as not supposing too much more than what the thing permits.

 

A) I talked about people who were doing their jobs, whom I should not have needed to teach how to find a trivial solution to a trivial problem complying with the requisites. I did not help them find it I repeated it until it got through their limited thinking, this isn't what I call teaching; they would only have needed capability of rational thought as well as that of doing their jobs. In some of the cases I was thinking about, I call it being the customer and having to tell them how to obtain what I want instead of what I don't want.

 

:doh: Even in the student-teacher case, Galileo doesn't imply that the student should think they understand it and the teacher doesn't. I've had teaching experience and I can assure you I understand exactly what is meant by that quote, I've helped many to arrive at the answer themselves and I've done it in these forums too.

 

Also my description of your behavior hardly characterizes you as King Kong when you are doing it over the internet...

It is what I called it, a portrayal. And I had never felt so macho in my life before that. :hihi:

 

I seriously doubt you would go around trying to intimidate people out of their opinions in person.

How do you know? :eek2:

[paigetheoracle]

I started getting older at about my midthirties, when I lost my temper and became a grumpy, migraine suffering old bastard (All my own work, alas). To stay that we've still got the same faculties at a later age as we did at an earlier one is as reasonable as saying none of us are going to die. We're all heading for that big '0' in our lives and to get through the eye of the needle, we've got to shrink a bit and this includes brain cells as well as physical stature: By the way could aging just be dehydrating, like a piece of dried fruit?

 

Another more interesting aside of this is something I posted ages ago - namely that from the point of view, of consciousness, rather than physical matter or mental prowess standpoints, the bit of us that is 'alive' is like lava and our history is the volcanic cone, consisting of past experience (memories/dead matter). This is why we may not feel older than in our youth but our bodies are records of our passing away from this world and into the next and our mental incapacities, proof of this separation of our being from how it was to how it is (a spent rocket, with less fuel than it started with but still burning with some kind of life).

 

This may explain the differences of viewpoints - what you're looking at and what you're looking with.

[Michaelangelica]

Science tries to find secrets of teen brains

(Republished with permission from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. This article originally ran on Saturday, December 10, 2005)

By Tina Hesman and Matt Franck

St. Louis Post-Dispatch

 

 

 

New brain research is shattering assumptions held for generations about the adolescent mind, fueling a battle over teen mental health, the rights of parents and the effectiveness of treatment.

 

The findings are forcing scientists to redraw the line between normal teen behavior and severe mental illness, while questioning how the brain truly develops.

 

The picture that's emerging is a teen brain not merely awash in a brief tide of hormones but also in the middle of a tumultuous overhaul.

Those transitions, scientists now believe, are so significant that they may unlock the mysteries of mental illness, explaining why some teens take their own lives, why others harm their classmates and loved ones, or why some emerge later in life with crippling mental disorders. [/quote Science tries to find secrets of teen brains

 

God (or Not), Physics and, of Course, Love: Scientists Take a Leap

 

Published: January 4, 2005

 

"What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?"

This was the question posed to scientists, futurists and other creative thinkers by John Brockman, a literary agent and publisher of Edge, a Web site devoted to science. The site asks a new question at the end of each year. Here are excerpts from the responses, to be posted Tuesday at Edge.

 

Roger Schank

Psychologist and computer scientist; author, "Designing World-Class E-Learning"

 

Irrational choices.

 

I do not believe that people are capable of rational thought when it comes to making decisions in their own lives.

People believe they are behaving rationally and have thought things out, of course, but when major decisions are made - who to marry, where to live, what career to pursue, what college to attend, people's minds simply cannot cope with the complexity. When they try to rationally analyze potential options, their unconscious, emotional thoughts take over and make the choice for them

.

The New York Times > Science > God (or Not), Physics and, of Course, Love: Scientists Take a Leap

 

Blow Your Top Expert: Risky teen behavior is all in the brain

A new review of adolescent brain research suggests that society is wasting billions of dollars on education and intervention programs to dissuade teens from dangerous activities, because their immature brains are not yet capable of avoiding risky behaviors.

Expert: Risky teen behavior is all in the brain - snopes.com

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...en-brain_N.htm

 

That our society will crumble if the First Amendment rights of young people are protected. Over the past several years, politicians and special interest groups have lamented that our society is crumbling at a rapid rate due to influences on young people from movies, music, the Internet, and television.

ASFAR Position Paper on Free Speech

 

AE: Why do you think it is important to reach the young people?

 

JG: Well if you take somebody like me who has spent so long studying chimpanzees understanding their, well I don't know their true nature yet. But we are working towards finding out as much as we can about their nature, helping us to unders

tand our relationship with the rest of the natural world, and thereby being shocked and horrified that chimpanzees are being faced with extinction across their ranges, that their habitats are being destroyed, that they're being commercially hunted for food. And what would be the point of my devoting all my energy to raising money and raising awareness to save the chimpanzees in the forest if, at the same time, we are not raising young generations of people to be better stewards than we have been? I look in the eyes of my grandchildren, my little great nephews and I think how much we have damaged the world since I was their age, and it is this feeling of shame, shame for what we have done. We have poisoned their world. We are bringing children into a world where they are being poisoned by what they breathe, what they eat. And it is really really shocking, especially if we look at the dangerous situation we are in politically in the world today.

 

GlobalTribe . Voices . Dr. Jane Goodall | PBS

 

Adler states:

 

...our political democracy depends upon the reconstitution of our schools. Our schools are not turning out young people prepared for the high office and the duties of citizenship in a democratic republic. Our political institutions cannot thrive, they may not even survive, if we do not produce a greater number of thinking citizens, from whom some statesmen of the type we had in the 18th century might eventually emerge. We are, indeed, a nation at risk, and nothing but radical reform of our schools can save us from impending disaster... Whatever the price... the price we will pay for not doing it will be much greater.[2]

Educational perennialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

We all have something to offer we just need to listen to each other

[paigetheoracle]

With regards to stubborness in the old - perhaps you should think of it as resistance, caused by pain (emotional or physical wear and tear [as in 'rip' and also as in 'drop of liquid in eye' ): Not, can't learn degeneration but won't learn protectiveness - in other words, sometimes it's deliberate because of phobias and other times material injuries to the brain).

 

Something else you should consider is that Alzheimers and brain injuries can release abilities as well as suppress others (Left brain/ right brain differences).

[Michaelangelica]

With regards to stubborness in the old

 

Being stubborn is not a personality characteristic peculiar or exclusive to the old.

Some people are stubborn some are not

I have well formed opionions

He is too assertive

You are stubborn

It's all a matter of perception

 

I have noticed some very old people 80+ like routine and don't like changes in that routine. But many children however are the same and do best in a very structured environment where their behavior parameters are proscribed.

Other kids do very poorly with such rigid structure in their lives.

I also know a 90 year old who teachers kids to sail every weekend.

 

When you generalise (about one human group or another) you are becoming a prejudiced bigot. Racism and genocide is the ultimate outcome of this process of thinking.

 

Sometimes it is hard to make contact with older people but when you do they are a wealth of knowledge and interesting stories. Just as it is hard to make contact with an adolescent youth. Once you "break through"( to both old and young) they teach you a lot about life. Trust is needed and that takes a long time usually. An investment many don't give even to their own kids, wife or friends

You should read the book "The Little Prince" (St Exbury?) ;

there is a little bit in it where the 'hero' makes friends with a fox. They start by sitting looking at each other then gradually day-by-day get closer until they start to communicate.

Communicating with another human (or even an animal) is risky business cause you have to share some of yourself and risk rejection. Sometimes sharing feels like loss.

 

Both the old and young have much to teach each other.

It is a tragedy that they are segregated in our society.

In many societies this is not the case and I think all are better for it.

Some Aboriginal communities in Australia have so many problems because of young people's loss of contact with their "elders' and so, then too, their traditional knowledge, language, world view/philosophy culture and pride. So the young ones sniff petrol and the old drink alcohol to oblivion. (I am generalizing here)

 

I remember an ABC radio programme called "oral history" where very old people talked about their lives. It was fascinating stuff-information and feelings you would never get from a history book.

 

I don't think there is any psychological proof that mental abilities decrease with age (except in disease states of course).

Patterns of thinking might change over time.

People may become more positive, prejudiced and stubborn in their outlook. They may also become more logical, open and wise in their outlook.

 

I would hate to be 18 again. being a teenager sucked for me.

Getting old sucks when your body won't do what you want it to do; but I now have knowledge, intellectual, interpersonal,communication and other skills that I never had at 18.

 

My greatest teachers have been the people i risked getting to know (my 'students') and especially the people I love/ loved my wife, children, mistress etc. Children teach you so much; and to see with new eyes.

[Hill]

B Kliban

 

As a former child, and as someone who has been loosing brain cells since my "prime" for at least 45 years, I think I am more capable of rational thought and learning than I was at 17. But there is that occasional problem of forgetting ... damn, what was that word ... stuff. I do know that technology is racing ahead faster and faster and that I choose not to spend my time keeping up with all of it. I have to choose carefully and not get bogged down with the latest wrinkle in culture or tech. Does that may me unable to learn, or just wise enough to pace myself?

[paigetheoracle]

Being stubborn is not a personality characteristic peculiar or exclusive to the old.

Some people are stubborn some are not

I have well formed opionions

He is too assertive

You are stubborn

It's all a matter of perception

 

I have noticed some very old people 80+ like routine and don't like changes in that routine. But many children however are the same and do best in a very structured environment where their behavior parameters are proscribed.

 

The Autistic for instance

 

Other kids do very poorly with such rigid structure in their lives.

I also know a 90 year old who teachers kids to sail every weekend.

 

Yes, it' a question of being confidant and adventurous and wanting to go beyond your boundaries (bored with them) as opposed to being defensive because you are snagged on a problem in life (obsessed with solving it - "DEEP THOUGHT", the universes most advanced computer in "The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. To me this is the answer to why war and peace exist on the global scale too but it's a social difficulty not an individual one "How anything works is how everything works" as I put it once

 

When you generalise (about one human group or another) you are becoming a prejudiced bigot. Racism and genocide is the ultimate outcome of this process of thinking.

 

Generalisation is a defence mechanism and 'we all do it':hihi:

 

Sometimes it is hard to make contact with older people but when you do they are a wealth of knowledge and interesting stories. Just as it is hard to make contact with an adolescent youth. Once you "break through"( to both old and young) they teach you a lot about life. Trust is needed and that takes a long time usually. An investment many don't give even to their own kids, wife or friends

You should read the book "The Little Prince" (St Exbury?) ;

there is a little bit in it where the 'hero' makes friends with a fox. They start by sitting looking at each other then gradually day-by-day get closer until they start to communicate.

Communicating with another human (or even an animal) is risky business cause you have to share some of yourself and risk rejection. Sometimes sharing feels like loss.

 

Well it is loss - letting go of the old way of life to make way for the new

 

Both the old and young have much to teach each other.

It is a tragedy that they are segregated in our society.

In many societies this is not the case and I think all are better for it.

Some Aboriginal communities in Australia have so many problems because of young people's loss of contact with their "elders' and so, then too, their traditional knowledge, language, world view/philosophy culture and pride. So the young ones sniff petrol and the old drink alcohol to oblivion. (I am generalizing here)

 

True and this is why the world is lost at present - the wisdom of the elders has become washed away by the enthusiasm of the young, which lacks the depth perception of the old i.e. experience: A shallow river is swift and narrow,appearing powerful because it washes all away before it and a slow one is wide and deep, depositing its knowledge for all to see (grounded, not fiery. We need both in a balanced society

 

I remember an ABC radio programme called "oral history" where very old people talked about their lives. It was fascinating stuff-information and feelings you would never get from a history book.

 

I don't think there is any psychological proof that mental abilities decrease with age (except in disease states of course).

Patterns of thinking might change over time.

People may become more positive, prejudiced and stubborn in their outlook. They may also become more logical, open and wise in their outlook.

 

True - see above about borders and opening/ closing

 

I would hate to be 18 again. being a teenager sucked for me.

Getting old sucks when your body won't do what you want it to do; but I now have knowledge, intellectual, interpersonal,communication and other skills that I never had at 18.

 

I wouldn't want that pain and disaster again either but I still have blips, especially with computers

 

My greatest teachers have been the people i risked getting to know (my 'students') and especially the people I love/ loved my wife, children, mistress etc. Children teach you so much; and to see with new eyes.

 

Old eyes can only teach old things but it may be new to new eyes as you found with 'Oral History' on ABC and I found with people recounting war memories etc, on British television "World at War" series (WWII) etc

[Michaelangelica]

I am not sure about Autism and structure. Things are changing so much these days in their treatment/education

 

But one good cartoon deserves another!

 

[questor]

Older people have one thing younger do not...wisdom. Wisdom is achieved

by innate intelligence tempered by experience. It takes time to understand the way things really work and one will make many mistakes until this synthesis of knowledge and experience occurs. I would guess from the posts here that many of you have never talked to an older person, or if you have, that person may have entered the condition of senility in which case, his brain wiring has started to deteriorate. Our brains work well until the cells can no longer execute their jobs properly. This can happen at any age. I would think that we would not want our society governed by impetuous youth

or those of any age who have no wisdom.

[TZK]

I agree old people may gain wisdom, as they find themselves looking objectively at other people's experiences rather than engrossed in their own daily lives.

 

However there are people that do not need to be old to gain wisdom, because they study learning and objectivity itself. There is no type of knowledge that can be gained that escapes these people because everything they do is towards the end of gaining knowledge and wisdom.

 

However another thing that I did not consider for this topic is the idea that older people tend to gain different perspectives in morality as they age. Meaning they may be more likely to be stubborn because they no longer believe that admitting when they are wrong will get them anywhere. Whereas a younger person may have a stronger belief in benefiting the community by helping to find the right answer and admitting when you are wrong... perhaps subconsciously expecting respect or affection for their actions...

[Michaelangelica]

I find the premise of this thread offensive

It is a bit like "Are women capable of rational thought"

It is prejudicial,bigoted and ageist.

[questor]

I agree with the above. The poster of this thread exhibits qualities of ignorance, immaturity, poor observational skills, and a total lack of respect for the feelings of others. Do his parents exhibit the inability to think also?Maybe he should more closely observe the age of people who contribute most to our society, perhaps this would open his eyes and start him on the long road to wisdom.

[DougF]

You can Lead a horse to water...:hihi:

[Qfwfq]

And I also don't get why it's the young that would readily admit to being wrong.

 

(St Exbury?)

That's the brain cells dying away!!!!!!

 

It's Saint-Exupéry.

[Michaelangelica]

And I also don't get why it's the young that would readily admit to being wrong.

 

?? What does this mean? Youth are rarely wrong. At least in their own opinion.

That's the brain cells dying away!!!!!!

If you studied a bit more biology you would know that they don't die but are renewed

The arrogance of youth?

[freeztar]

I find the premise of this thread offensive

It is a bit like "Are women capable of rational thought"

It is prejudicial,bigoted and ageist.

 

Youth are rarely wrong. At least in their own opinion.

...

The arrogance of youth?

 

:)