How soon will a moneyless society change the way we percieve each other?

[Peacemaker]

Hi Buffy, Thanks for your continued efforts to get my arguments on the 'straight and narrow' Let's see if this hits the mark with you:

 

(How do we get there?)

 

I am currently meeting with a worldwide organisation which has been in existence for over 100 years who have ideas which are almost exactly in line with mine. Their jargon is a little dated, as are their proposed methods of 'getting there'. However, with a little editing and re-branding I believe I can direct their huge resource of people and communications in a more structured and modern way to reach the people of today.

 

I aim to use their resources to send a positive message to the peoples of this planet. Telling them that there are people who are ready, willing and able to guide us, as a species, to a better way of living. Right here, right now.

 

Once I have the attention of the peoples of the world I will indicate the hour and the day when the evolution will take place, should there be sufficient support. I would guage that support by asking the peoples of this planet to mark their doors and/or windows with a pre-agreed sign, which would be to hang, or tie something yellow to their front door handles, or display something yellow in their windows, That's all the initial support which will be required to take this forward.

 

Once I am satisfied that we have secured the will of the majority of the peoples of this planet for change, I will begin to engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet in talks to decide which areas should be targeted for relief from day one, and arrange for adequate resource to be sent to those areas in order to begin to save human life as soon as possible.

 

I will discuss with them the security of supply of all goods from day one. I will be explaining, as I have already done in the document, that from the moment of evolution forward, no one will own, or exercise ownership over anything on this planet. This means that factories can continue producing at exactly the same rate as they have always done, until we have time to re-fit them with faster, more efficient equipment. Plants in the fields will continue to grow. animals will continue to be looked after.

 

Everything will seem exactly the same at the end of day 1 of our new civilisation as it was 24 hours before, except that our philosophy will have changed. THAT'S when we will really begin to see and reap the benefits of this way of life.

 

War will have ended. Forever.

 

Inequality will have begun to be ended. Forever.

 

Crime will very quickly be eradicated from human consciousness. Forever

 

We will begin to take measures to ensure that all the peoples of the world will have access to safe food and water, and very quickly get to the point where starvation, malnutrition and preventable and curable 'killer' diseases, such as cholera, Kwashiorkor, typhoid, malaria and TB are eliminated as man-killers, Forever.

 

A world wide amnesty on gun posession would be enacted. We would ask every person on the planet who owns a firearm or dangerous weapon to surrender it to the police or the military, or to at the very least, make it unusable until they have developed enough faith in their species to know that there is no 'trickery' going on, no-one is going to turn their weapons around on them and kill them.

 

We will be recruiting qualified, experienced volunteers to lead other volunteers, who are temporarily out of work, to undertake environmental projects, all around the world, as a start to returning our planet to a pristine condition.

 

We will begin to plan and organise our existence on this planet in a structured, ordered way, ensuring that whilst we only produce and distribute only the very best for ourselves, we don't over-produce, or use areas of the planet we don't need to use. Using this philosophy we can end the boom and bust nature of civilisatiion very quickly. And forever.

 

That's the only way I can see for getting us there Buffy. If I can't get sufficient support from the peoples of the planet, then things will continue exactly as they are. And if that doesn't scare you into doing something positive, then you really need to travel the world and see how other people live, and how people are abusing each other now, for money, and the power it brings them.

 

Hope this aids understanding.

 

Ken (Peacemaker).

[pgrmdave]

I, for one, would not support that system, unless everybody else did (in which case I'd probably just exploit it for personal gain )

 

What would you do about nations like China, or North Korea, or Iran, or Sudan, or Cuba, or all the other nations which are distrustful of others?

 

Might I suggest that rather than starting big, you start small, and show the world how great things could be if they follow you? If you can create a fully functional utopian society in a nation only the size of, say, Mexico, or Germany, or Brazil, then the world would be more likely to give support.

[Peacemaker]

Honestly, no, I haven't. I simply don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. If you have answered these questions previously, could you give me a post number for some of them? (I don't have a page 6 of this thread, we probably have our settings different as to how many posts / page).

 

(If you don't have the inclination to read the source material, honestly, why are you asking questions? If something is important to you, your friends and to generations as yet unborn, why wouldn't you want to know everything that has been written about it so far? Further down your post you ask me for technical and library information. Why should I bother providing you with it when you tell me that you don't have the time or inclination to do any research? Here's a clue. Try reading the whole of this thread from the beginning to find the source material. It should only take you about 1 hour. Think of it as time invested wisely. :hihi:

 

People don't typically want to do what's in the best interest of mankind, but what's in their immediate best interest. Ideally, we wouldn't, but it is a simple fact of human nature that a given percentage of people will defect rather than cooperate.

 

(Yes people typically do want to do what is in our best and most immediate interest, and if our best interest is also mankind's best interest, who's losing?...and what is your source for this 'fact' of human nature that a given percentage of people will defect rather than cooperate?...and what IS that given percentage? I would have to say that that remark is not a fact, but merely you surmising what the rest of the population will do and think.)

 

This is an interesting thought. Given that we are on a science site, I recommend that both of us find sources and see if this is true - that there really is enough food, transportation fuel, and arable land for six billion people.

 

(It's true...I guarantee it. Try reading New Scientist, where they have recently calculated that there is enough potential productive capacity on this planet for 6 times its current human population. The fact of the matter is that we currently use land wastefully. With hydroponics, soil technology and the current changes in plant and animal genetics that are going on (and I'm not going to get into an argument about the ethics of THAT. I'm merely stating it as a fact.) we can utilise largely 'useless' areas of the planet like 'the desert' and 'the steppes' and 'really steep hills' to build horticultural and agricultural centres of excellence.Thereby concentrating our productive efforts into camparably small spaces from the area we currently (ab)use. Can you see that as a step forward Dave? Or are you going to come up with another glib comment with an 'evil' after it?)

 

The devil is in the details. (Now where have I heard that before?) The minutia are incredibly important, as they are what actually get implemented. Having a vision of a grand transportation system for NYC is great. Picturing how you're going to put commuter rail down over the roads, without disturbing the wiring and piping underneath, and without having to shut down the city for an inordinate amount of time is when it becomes difficult.

 

(I'm not an engineer Dave, or an architect, or a deep sea diver. Our species HAS the skills to come up with answers to these problems. Doesn't large scale engineering take place in New York anymore?:hihi::()

 

I used to be a big proponent of this, and I didn't understand why we didn't do it until I asked one of my professors and he pointed out that we've had at least one space vehicle explode on liftoff. Are you really willing to take the risk that a vehicle with a nuclear waste payload could explode, spreading the waste throughout the world? It would only take 1 mistake for it to be the biggest and costliest mistake that humans have ever made.

 

(When we transport nuclear waste here in the UK, it has to be encased in an incredibly strong capsule. These capsules are so strong it is estimated that they could survive a direct hit from a large locomotive. They are tested to destruction, and it takes an absolutely massive direct force to even crack them. Your professor was looking at it from the point of view that everything would be made 'to a price', rather than 'to a specification'

 

Do you honestly think, that with all the equipment and technology that is at our disposal, we wouldn't be able to come up with perfectly safe transport capsules, which would survive intact at maybe twice the projected forces imparted during such a catastrophic accident? or maybe 10 times, or what about 100 times? You seriously underestimate the capabilities of our species Dave.)

 

We don't have the whole planet, that's a gross misstatement. We have all the habitable planet (i.e. not extremely hilly areas, nor areas that are too dry or cold or hot, nor areas that are needed wetlands, or grasslands) minus the parts that we use for other things (places to live, work, grow food, play, places set aside for wildlife preserves).

 

(I'm not making any gross misstatement here Dave. I have told you above that we already have the technology and know-how to be able to dramatically reduce our biological footprint on this planet...and still live a wonderful life.)

 

Really? Could you link some information for me, so that I could read about it on my own? What are these "useless" areas, and what is this "technology and know how"? I'm not doubting you, I simply feel at a disadvantage, having not studied these things.

 

(There is a whole internet full of information on just whatever you are looking for. Try typing 'Recent findings in soil technology' into your search engine. Or 'What is the biomass of the human population on earth?' Try thinking laterally.)

 

Sorry, I live in NJ - no empty land here :hihi:

 

(Have you ever tried travelling very far away from NJ Dave? you should give it a bash. Travel broadens the mind.)

 

As far as I'm aware, much of the United State's land along the coasts is either used or protected, and I'd assume that held true even for much of middle america. Much of canada is permafrost (though global warming is fixing that!) and South America doesn't have the infrastructure yet to be able to use much of its land as effectively as Europe or the US.

 

(If you could have been inclined to read my document Dave, you would have found out that there is an island, off the coast of Africa, in the Canary Islands group, which is an extinct volcano. The base of it sits on a steep geological fault line, running away from Africa and towards the Eastern Americal Seaboard. (That's the New York side). The base material holding this land mass to the African Continental plate is like a rotting tooth. Scientists predict that when that tooth breaks off, millions of tons of Island will slide towards America, creating a tidal wave more than a thousand feet high, which will be hundreds of miles long. This Tsunami will wipe out all civilisation around the Western Atlantic rim, for miles inland. Millions will die, and because the land will be inundated by seawater, the land itself will be useless for years, because of the salt pollution. Now, armed with this knowledge, do you think that this region is a good place for humanity to build on and live on currently? Why not let the experts locate safe areas of our planet, which are statistically the most unlikely to be affected by natural disasters and locate out population there? Where it's safe?

 

...and you neglected to take on board what I wrote about flying over Europe, and seeing huge expanses of empty land beneath me, with the overflying of large cities taking up only a few short minutes of a four hour flight? Europe is considered to be highly populated. To fly over London, with its population of 10 million people, takes less than 5 minutes.)

 

Without problems, there can be no solutions. I often try to come up with all the problems inherent in a system - if it is your system that you are proposing, then it is not up to me to try to fix it.

 

(You're missing the point again Dave, It's up to all of us to employ a little 'blue sky thinking' here, and use our individual expertise and experience to see if we can come up with solutions to strengthen the argument for this.

 

The evolution of mankind.

 

It really is in ALL our interests to circumvent the objections and just get on with it.)

 

The problem is that you haven't addressed any of my questions with anything specific. You have a lot of grand ideas, and some of them sound great, but without specifics, without even a hint of a blueprint, it's just a castle in the sky.

 

(...And, for you, it always will be, until you take the decision to REAlLY consider what's at stake here and properly evaluate the pros and cons.)

 

All the best Dave :hihi:

Peacemaker.

[Buffy]

Hi Buffy, Thanks for your continued efforts to get my arguments on the 'straight and narrow' :)

Happy to! Anytime! :)

Let's see if this hits the mark with you:

 

(How do we get there?)

I'll try to translate this for folks who need a simpler explanation (kinda like the new Geico Ads here in the US with the celebrity translators...except for the fact that I have a lot more hair and am way cuter than Peter Frampton):

I am currently meeting with a worldwide organisation which has been in existence for over 100 years who have ideas which are almost exactly in line with mine. Their jargon is a little dated, as are their proposed methods of 'getting there'. However, with a little editing and re-branding I believe I can direct their huge resource of people and communications in a more structured and modern way to reach the people of today.

"I'm meeting with a Blue-Ribbon Commission of Really Smart and Influential People, who agree with me, and with some undefined slight modifications of all the stuff they've already tried with their millions of dollars, we'll come up with a way to convince everyone of this really good idea."

I aim to use their resources to send a positive message to the peoples of this planet. Telling them that there are people who are ready, willing and able to guide us, as a species, to a better way of living. Right here, right now.

"I'm gonna tell everyone that it'll be really cool when we're done. Peace. No shortages. No crime. No avarice. Clean air and water. No more global warming. And it'll happen instantaneously with no effort on your part."

Once I have the attention of the peoples of the world...

"As soon as they hear this, they'll all agree that this is a really good idea and be ready to listen to me!"

... I will indicate the hour and the day when the evolution will take place, ....

"I personally will be the messiah...be there or be square!

...should there be sufficient support. I would guage that support by asking the peoples of this planet to mark their doors and/or windows with a pre-agreed sign, which would be to hang, or tie something yellow to their front door handles, or display something yellow in their windows,

"...and remember what happened to the Egyptians who didn't mark their doors like Moses said to!

That's all the initial support which will be required to take this forward.

"I don't even need to count how many, if anyone puts something on their door, that'll be enough. Those who don't, well, it may not stop with the first born male child...."

Once I am satisfied that we have secured the will of the majority of the peoples of this planet for change, I will begin to engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet in talks to decide which areas should be targeted for relief from day one, and arrange for adequate resource to be sent to those areas in order to begin to save human life as soon as possible.

"Since it will be obvious that I am a dangerous and unstoppable political force, all world leaders will beg to meet with me because I'm obviously the only one who knows how to implement these undescribed solutions which the Really Smart People who are at my beck and call will work out. Somehow. Instantaneously."

I will discuss with them the security of supply of all goods from day one. I will be explaining, as I have already done in the document, that from the moment of evolution forward, no one will own, or exercise ownership over anything on this planet.

"That is, the government owns them, and if you dare to breach the 'security of supply' by say, thinking that the factory could be improved if you just walk in and try to manage it differently, there will be severe consequences.

 

"If you wish to start a factory of your own that runs better though, it will obviously very easy to simply go find a bunch of people who are doing nothing--there will be lots of idle CEOs and other formerly-rich folks--and since recourse to build gigantic plants will be free, there will be no obstacles to doing whatever you want."

...This means that factories can continue producing at exactly the same rate as they have always done, until we have time to re-fit them with faster, more efficient equipment. Plants in the fields will continue to grow. animals will continue to be looked after.

"Trifling problems like supply chain management and allocation of resources of course will no longer be necessary, because after this change, all resource availability will become infinite overnight."

Everything will seem exactly the same at the end of day 1 of our new civilisation as it was 24 hours before, except that our philosophy will have changed. THAT'S when we will really begin to see and reap the benefits of this way of life.

"Well, unless you're rich, in which case you'll notice people moving into your living room because you no longer own your house, and they want to enjoy your view of the ocean.

 

"You may want to put your toothbrush under your pillow when you go to bed."

War will have ended. Forever.

 

Inequality will have begun to be ended. Forever.

"We will have convinced everyone to get along, although we haven't worked out exactly how we're going to convince them...but we will because we have Really Smart People who will figure it out.

 

"By tomorrow. Honest. Its really quite simple."

Inequality will have begun to be ended. Forever.

"Note that I am be *completely* realistic. I say "begun" because I know it will take a while for all those people in South Central LA to move to the Malibu Colony where they'll prefer to live. Since Babs will no longer own her mansion, she'll simply have to decide whether she wants all those folks in her living room or whether she should upgrade to San Simeon before some one else thinks of it."

Crime will very quickly be eradicated from human consciousness. Forever.

"Since no one owns anything, there is--by definition--no such thing as "theft" any more, nor is there any reason to assault or kill someone to take anything that's theirs because there are infinite resources! Moreover, everyone is going to be so blissfully happy that there will be no crimes of passion.

 

"And there will be an infinite number of really cute blonde women like Buffy and hunky guys like Matthew Fox so there will be no envy or coveteousness!"

We will begin to take measures to ensure that all the peoples of the world will have access to safe food and water, and very quickly get to the point where starvation, malnutrition and preventable and curable 'killer' diseases, such as cholera, Kwashiorkor, typhoid, malaria and TB are eliminated as man-killers, Forever.

"Oh I forgot to mention, we do have Really Smart People working on this, but they might take a little bit more time to cure all these diseases, even though they have infinite resources.

 

"Oh and I do admit that I might have an eensy-weensy bit of trouble convincing desperately starving people in the third world to go along with this because they are so *selfishly* trying to find enough food to eat, so it might take a bit of time to get them on board.

 

"As such, be sure not to kill their first-borns even if they haven't put a mark on their door."

A world wide amnesty on gun posession would be enacted. We would ask every person on the planet who owns a firearm or dangerous weapon to surrender it to the police or the military, or to at the very least, make it unusable until they have developed enough faith in their species to know that there is no 'trickery' going on, no-one is going to turn their weapons around on them and kill them.

"You see we realize that folks that own guns, uh well, think a little bit funny. They're kinda paranoid and even though I have this brilliant-but-unstated-strategy for convincing everyone to think right, these paranoid schizophenic gun nuts are gonna take some special handling.

 

"They need to remember though that we have the armies of all of the brainwashed enlightened countries of the world and we'll pry the dang things from your cold dead hands if we have to."

We will be recruiting qualified, experienced volunteers to lead other volunteers, who are temporarily out of work, to undertake environmental projects, all around the world, as a start to returning our planet to a pristine condition.

"Of course even though I promised that "everything will seem exactly the same at the end of day 1 of our new civilisation as it was 24 hours before," in fact its gonna put a LOT of people out of work, but that's where we get an infinite amount of free labor!

 

"I know I have to be careful about using the term 'volunteer' since so many people get all uppity about 'workin' fo' nuthin'' but really its to reinforce the fact that when I announce my incredibly convincing-but-as-yet-unworked-out argument for making this change, that everyone is going to *want* to do what ever I deem is "good for everyone." It will all be stuff to make you feel good! And even for the yucky stuff, there'll be plenty of people who want to do it! Heck, I'm sure Mike Rowe will!"

We will begin to plan and organise our existence on this planet in a structured, ordered way, ensuring that whilst we only produce and distribute only the very best for ourselves, we don't over-produce, or use areas of the planet we don't need to use. Using this philosophy we can end the boom and bust nature of civilisatiion very quickly. And forever.

"This will be easy because we've got a bunch of Really Smart People working on how all these complex supply chains will work. It'll probably involve some really fancy software or something, that can instantaneously change production requirements based on what people are going to want to be producing a month a year or 5 years from now with absolutely perfect efficiency and foreknowledge of all potential natural disasters that could affect it. That's really easy to do when you have Really Smart People working on it.

 

"Oh and you sticks in the mud who complain that command economies like the Soviet Union, Communist Eastern Europe and North Korea have never worked before, just don't realize how *transformative* my as-yet-unstated-convincing-argument-for-thinking-different is really going to be! It changes everything!"

That's the only way I can see for getting us there Buffy. If I can't get sufficient support from the peoples of the planet, then things will continue exactly as they are. And if that doesn't scare you into doing something positive, then you really need to travel the world and see how other people live, and how people are abusing each other now, for money, and the power it brings them.

"Anyone who doesn't agree that they should support me obviously has no knowledge of the world if they are so stupid not to see why we shouldn't make the world a perfect Nirvana. They all probably *want* the world to be a bad place.

 

"Sickos.

 

"See the solution is simply to get everyone to come listen to me and I'll convince them that they should change the way that they think so that they all think like I do.

 

"All it would take is an hour or so.

 

"I have it all worked out.

 

"Once everyone is practicing right thinking, then all you have to do is just eliminate money and ownership and resources will be infinite.

 

"That's all! Its so easy if you would just stop to think the way I do!"

Hope this aids understanding.

"Isn't it obvious?"

 

Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta, :)

Buffy

[Peacemaker]

Hi Buffy,

 

Well, again you succeed in disappointing me with your lack of basic humanity. I offer suggestions and possible solutions, you offer sarcasm and negativity. I offer hope and love, you offer nothing.

 

Your remarks are those of a small spoiled child. You care nothing about the plight of others and are content to live in your little ivory tower and stamp your feet if anyone threatens to make you just as equal as the rest of us.

 

You make me more determined than ever that humanity should evolve away from your point of view.

:hyper:

[Zythryn]

Peacemaker, don't resort to name calling.

If you don't have any details, just say so.

If you do, please share, we would love to hear more.

However, at this stage, your 'plan' all comes down to:

"All of humanity will change their basic natures and learn to continue to work for just the basic needs".

So in your plan, do I understand correctly that no one will want a sports car? Or a unique work of art? I just don't see how you are going to overcome the most basic of human traits. The desire to gather and store resources.

[CraigD]

Assuming that a moneyless society is possible (an assumption I believe reasonable, because there’s clear historic evidence that for long periods, much or all of human society was moneyless), questions arise about what the transition from a moneyed to moneyless society would entail.

 

A couple of major character continuums are gradual-sudden and peaceful-violent. What Peacemaker describee is sudden and peaceful. What I (and Stross, in Accelerando) describe is gradual and peaceful. A stereotypical “workers revolution” is sudden and violent.

 

There’s reason to suspect that any sudden change in political power will entail violence, because some of the people opposed to any change are willing and capable of using violence to oppose it. Whether they are sociologically or morally incorrect or correct in doing so is inconsequential to the violence actually occurring.

 

To put it more pithily, if you throw a revolution, even a peaceful one, police will come.

 

:) Peacemaker, does it not strike you as likely that the events you envision, leading up to and including

Once I am satisfied that we have secured the will of the majority of the peoples of this planet for change, I will begin to engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet in talks to decide which areas should be targeted for relief from day one, and arrange for adequate resource to be sent to those areas in order to begin to save human life as soon as possible.

will involve you either being put in jail, or having to violently resist being put in jail?

[Buffy]

Well, again you succeed in disappointing me with your lack of basic humanity. I offer suggestions and possible solutions, you offer sarcasm and negativity. I offer hope and love, you offer nothing.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

Anyone who presents objections is a "hater" and an opponent of peace and harmony...

You make me more determined than ever that humanity should evolve away from your point of view.

:)

What's so sad is that you're unable to even get along with people who agree with your own goals.

 

You are *welcome* to try your "plan" but its so woefully lacking in any useful detail of how to handle the hard obstacles, that blaming the people who raise the objections for its *failure* is quite an embarrassingly transparent tactic for avoiding dealing with these obstacles.

 

You can continue to wonder why you get hostility in response to "hope and love," but honestly, at this point you're not fooling anyone around here except for yourself.

 

Why lovest thou that which thou receivest not gladly, or else receivest with pleasure thine annoy? :hyper:

Buffy

[pgrmdave]

...threatens to make you just as equal as the rest of us.

 

Now that's a horse of a different color! Thus far, you've been talking about everybody having everything they want. Not only that, but apparently for the wealthy, nothing would need to change. So which is it? Are those of us who are much wealthier than the majority of the world brought down? Or is the majority of the world brought up to be wealthy?

[Reaper]

I think it's been proven beyond reasonable doubt that no organism does any work unless it is in their best interest, or for reproduction. The use of money is simply just an elaborate manefestation of this phenomenon, so I don't think a moneyless society will ever come into existence.

 

Of course, it's not like people haven't tried to create one in the past. Read up on the disasterous communist revolutions, and you'll learn why it just simply doesn't work.

[Peacemaker]

Peacemaker, don't resort to name calling.

 

Hi Z, I have a question for you. Did you actually read what buffy wrote? It totally mis-represented everything I have stated in this thread, and you admonish me for 'name calling'? All that she wrote was derogatory and sneering. I don't hear anyone jumping to MY defence in this matter. Justice on this hypography seems a little one-sided.

 

If you don't have any details, just say so.

If you do, please share, we would love to hear more.

However, at this stage, your 'plan' all comes down to:

"All of humanity will change their basic natures and learn to continue to work for just the basic needs".

 

... and if you believe the statement you made above, you have also misinterpreted my aims for the whole of humanity. 'Working for basic needs' is not what I have ever advocated. I advocate producing the very best we can, for everyone.

 

That way there will be no greed or envy, just the plentiful availability of all the goods and services we want or need, to a high standard. In return for the work we put in, whatever that work may be.

 

I am not naive enough to believe, or demand that everyone will get everything they want from day one. That's why I call it an evolution. But what I do intend to do is to do my best to ensure that everyone has access to everything they need for basic life, as soon as possible. And then advance from there.

 

So in your plan, do I understand correctly that no one will want a sports car? Or a unique work of art? I just don't see how you are going to overcome the most basic of human traits. The desire to gather and store resources.

 

I see cars having a very short shelf life in the world I envisage. They are dangerous, polluting, expensive and devisive. I have written about this and given a possible answer to the remaining future of the automobile in my original document... and the desire to gather and store resources will become a main focus for our activities on this planet. But paintings and finery will no longer be seen as a resource, simply as an object. and if you want to keep your objects for your own amusement, then do so. I won't attempt to stop you. After a short while, without any monetary value, you will find that these 'things' will merely weigh you down and occupy far too much of your thinking time and you will be happy to see them displayed in public places where they can be properly preserved and enjoyed by all. That will be a truly evolutionary step.

Best regards to you and yours Z,

Peacemaker.

[Peacemaker]

Assuming that a moneyless society is possible (an assumption I believe reasonable, because there’s clear historic evidence that for long periods, much or all of human society was moneyless), questions arise about what the transition from a moneyed to moneyless society would entail.

 

A couple of major character continuums are gradual-sudden and peaceful-violent. What Peacemaker describee is sudden and peaceful. What I (and Stross, in Accelerando) describe is gradual and peaceful. A stereotypical “workers revolution” is sudden and violent.

 

Thanks for your comments Craig. Unfortunately I cannot envisage a gradual move away from money which can possibly be successful. As long as there is money in any system (including 'communism') there will be all the wrongs that accompany it. Like greed and inequality. By making the beginning of the evolution sudden and peaceful, we instantly remove the vast majority of the motives for wrongdoing and therefore clear the way for rightdoing, positive thinking and teamwork towards a universally beneficial end.

 

There’s reason to suspect that any sudden change in political power will entail violence, because some of the people opposed to any change are willing and capable of using violence to oppose it. Whether they are sociologically or morally incorrect or correct in doing so is inconsequential to the violence actually occurring.

 

To put it more pithily, if you throw a revolution, even a peaceful one, police will come.

 

You are very perceptive here Craig. There ARE groups and organisations with huge self interest who will attempt to taint what I say with innuendo and sarcasm, and if THAT doesn't succeed in focussing the minds of our species towards their negative aims, they WILL resort to violence and coercion of the populations of the world by whatever means possible. Have you any idea how much money America spent on demonising 'communism'? How unfortunate that they were not open minded enough to look at the 'communist' systems that were operating and work on ways to improve on them for their own peoples.

 

Peacemaker, does it not strike you as likely that the events you envision, leading up to and including will involve you either being put in jail, or having to violently resist being put in jail?

 

I do not envision myself being put in jail. I will commit no crime. I do however envision my sanity being questioned and my liberty being taken from me by powerful groups using section 8 of the UK mental health act, which would effectively shut me up and cast doubt upon my mental capacity to bring about such changes. These tactics are most effective and have been used in the past throughout the world to subborn free thinking.

 

I am also mindful of the fates of others who have had the audacity to offer a small percentage of the freedoms that I envisage, and the ultimate price they had to pay for expressing their beliefs. I do not minimise the potential risks to myself. I do however believe that not one drop of blood should be spilt by any of our species in the furtherance of my beliefs. I believe in the way of Ghandi. In peaceful and non-violent mass protest for the rights of all of us.

 

Best regards,

 

Peacemaker.

[Peacemaker]

I think it's been proven beyond reasonable doubt that no organism does any work unless it is in their best interest, or for reproduction. The use of money is simply just an elaborate manefestation of this phenomenon, so I don't think a moneyless society will ever come into existence.

 

(You're absolutely right Reaper, normal organisms don't work on anything which is detrimental to their systems, with the obvious exception of humanity. Huge numbers of us work in arms manufacturing, and the military, tobacco production, alcohol production, gaming, taxation etc etc. Wasting our efforts for no sane reason except to get a pay packet at the end of the week which will keep us doing these jobs, which are all ultimately detrimental to our species' experience on this planet. My philosophy is that we should only undertake work which is directly of benefit to all of us.)

 

Of course, it's not like people haven't tried to create one in the past. Read up on the disasterous communist revolutions, and you'll learn why it just simply doesn't work.

 

(I have dealt with this twice in the last 3 pages of this thread Reaper. The people who invented the theory of 'communism' were split as to the introductiion of a moneyless society. By force and propaganda, the people who wanted to preserve money as part of the human experience won. Therefore 'communism' is the bastard child of capitalism, with all its inherent weaknesses and few of the strengths that real, moneyless humanism would have engendered.

Best regards,

Peacemaker.

[Zythryn]

Hi Z, I have a question for you. Did you actually read what buffy wrote? It totally mis-represented everything I have stated in this thread, and you admonish me for 'name calling'? All that she wrote was derogatory and sneering. I don't hear anyone jumping to MY defence in this matter. Justice on this hypography seems a little one-sided.

 

Yes, I did. Granted, there is sarcasm in their, up to a point. People are asking for more detail other than 'I will expose people to this wisdom and they will take up this new way of living.'

That doesn't seem to be working too well for you yet.

 

 

... and if you believe the statement you made above, you have also misinterpreted my aims for the whole of humanity.

I appologize for misinterpreting your aims. Please provide details so that I can understand.

I agree with your aim of peaceful existance for all humanity. I disagree with your supposed cause for strife in this world. Money has nothing to do with it, greed and fear are the causes in my mind.

'Working for basic needs' is not what I have ever advocated.

 

Then why do you say:

I am not naive enough to believe, or demand that everyone will get everything they want from day one. That's why I call it an evolution. But what I do intend to do is to do my best to ensure that everyone has access to everything they need for basic life, as soon as possible. And then advance from there.

(bold added by me).

 

...paintings and finery will no longer be seen as a resource, simply as an object.

 

I have a bronze eagle statue which I absolutely love. I don't see it as a resource, simply as something to enjoy. Many other people have bought these as well. If they were free, more people would want them than can be made. How would you decide who gets one?

What if I was 900th on the list and only 12 a year could be made. Suppose I knew someone that was 3rd on the list. Might I not want to offer them something for their spot in line? Even if it were not money, it would be something, by definition, that the person valued more than their spot in line.

Woola! You have just created a barter system, AKA an economy.

 

I applaud your goal of peace. Eliminating Money isn't the way to do it. You need to eliminate all needs and desires. And I don't see a way to do that without lobotomies on a massive scale.

It would be far easier to eliminate corruption and see how much better off we are.

[pgrmdave]

What about music?

[Peacemaker]

Thank you for proving my point.

 

Anyone who presents objections is a "hater" and an opponent of peace and harmony...

 

(HI Buffy, I'm sorry you feel that way. Throughout this thread I have tried to impress on people that I am FOR all of humanity and that the theories I present will be good for all of humanity. Not just for the people who currently agree with me. What saddens me is that every time I get feedback like yours, or The Big Dog's, my theories are unfairly diminished in the eyes of other readers. All you seem able to see is negative. You have never once said to me, well THAT'S a good idea, how can we pursue that? As a student of human nature, I am a realist, and I know that there will be initial difficulties and perhaps short term shortages of some goods. However I think positively because I know that these short term problems will very quickly be overcome. I have said before that although the staff at the local diner may not turn up for work on the first day of this plan, larger, more positive changes will occur. THAT is the important message in this plan, to get the big stuff organised first and sort out the small stuff along the way.)

 

 

What's so sad is that you're unable to even get along with people who agree with your own goals.

 

(If you read back through this thread you will see that I have NEVER been negative to anyone who openly agrees with my philosophy. And that if people ask serious questions I will always try to give serious answers.

 

I have said again and again. I am just one man with a plan. It is a plan which I believe will work beautifully FOR ALL OF US if I can engender faith in it. It doesn't rely on any 'god' to bring it miraculously to fruition, just mutual respect and faith between human beings to work together for the betterment of our existence.

 

You want cast iron answers where I can only offer theories based on common sense and logic. My theories have never been tested on this planet. Perhaps a way forward would be to test them, as Dave suggested, on a small scale. Problem being that any such testing would involve the provision, by capitalist based countries of EVERYTHING that would be required to make it work.

 

Skills, equipment and materials would have to be available, on demand, from the inception of such an experiment to carry out every task. Because they will be available very quickly on this planet when it goes global.

 

What potential obstacles do you see to this Buffy? Can you foresee that capitalistic societies may baulk at sending all this free food and equipment to an experimental area so that the recipients can live better than they do? Which world powers do YOU see trying to make this fail, by labelling it as 'the red menace, or the communist threat to global freedom, or the Peacemaker's folly?)

 

You are *welcome* to try your "plan" but its so woefully lacking in any useful detail of how to handle the hard obstacles, that blaming the people who raise the objections for its *failure* is quite an embarrassingly transparent tactic for avoiding dealing with these obstacles. :)

 

(What hard obstacles are you referring to Buffy, apart from human negativity?

 

I have covered, in the original document, the provision and upkeep of the 'supply chain', the removal of all international boundaries and laws. The fact that I have enough faith in human ingenuity and common sense for us to MAKE this work, and all the other potential obstacles I can foresee. What other 'hard obstacles' are you referring to? Selfishness, greed, fear of the unknown? These are obstacles that each human being has to mentally overcome by their own efforts, by believing in our species and its ability to embrace and conquer change with a positive outcome.)

 

You can continue to wonder why you get hostility in response to "hope and love," but honestly, at this point you're not fooling anyone around here except for yourself.

 

(I'm not trying to fool anyone Buffy, I'm just trying to bring about a change in our global philosophy, for the better. Can you honestly make the same claim?)

 

Why lovest thou that which thou receivest not gladly, or else receivest with pleasure thine annoy? :phones:

Buffy

 

(I gladly receive everything I love and take no pleasure in receiving that which annoys me, which I think is the reverse of what you are saying.;)

 

Apologies Buffy if you considered my remarks to your previous post a little sharp. It was a kneejerk reaction to the negativity and gross misrepresentation of it all, which I found extremely disappointing and upsetting. Please don't fall out with me, I really AM a nice fella.)

 

Best regards to you and yours,

 

Ken

[Peacemaker]

Yes, I did. Granted, there is sarcasm in their, up to a point. People are asking for more detail other than 'I will expose people to this wisdom and they will take up this new way of living.'

That doesn't seem to be working too well for you yet.

I appologize for misinterpreting your aims. Please provide details so that I can understand.

 

(I believe I have made my aims abundently clear throughout this thread Z, a better world, for all of us, brought about by our individual contribution to the global effort, It's not THAT hard to understand is it?)

 

I agree with your aim of peaceful existance for all humanity. I disagree with your supposed cause for strife in this world. Money has nothing to do with it, greed and fear are the causes in my mind.

 

(Greed for what and fear of what in a peaceful. moneyless society Z?)

 

Then why do you say:

 

(Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I am not naive enough to believe, or demand that everyone will get everything they want from day one. That's why I call it an evolution. But what I do intend to do is to do my best to ensure that everyone has access to everything they need for basic life, as soon as possible. And then advance from there.)

 

(bold added by me).

 

(Why wouldn't I say that Z? Take away your editing and the statement stands up for itself. The last line is, I think, the one that you failed to take into account. I can't just click my fingers and produce everything that everyone wants instantly, I leave that to the fantasies of the 'true believers' Try reading it again from start to finish and its meaning will, I'm sure, become clear.)

 

I have a bronze eagle statue which I absolutely love. I don't see it as a resource, simply as something to enjoy. Many other people have bought these as well. If they were free, more people would want them than can be made. How would you decide who gets one?

What if I was 900th on the list and only 12 a year could be made. Suppose I knew someone that was 3rd on the list. Might I not want to offer them something for their spot in line? Even if it were not money, it would be something, by definition, that the person valued more than their spot in line.

Woola! You have just created a barter system, AKA an economy.

 

(Your assumption of some kind of a 'list' amuses me. is that the only way you can see society working? by asking people to put their names down on 'lists' for what they want? And do you think that using vast amounts of our resources to make bronze eagles would be a good investment of our time, effort and resource? Personally I would prefer to go out into the countryside and see live ones. I know that you are using this as an example of what you think people will want in a moneyless society and that the first part of this answer is a little glib, but there is a deeper meaning. I see humanity naturally moving away from hoarding 'stuff' as a part of this evolution. I believe that conquering the evils in our society is more important than squabbling or bartering for 'stuff'. I foresee a much more mobile and noble society that will have enough beauty, entertainment and fulfillment in our everyday lives to fill the void in our souls that accumulating 'stuff' presently does.)

 

I applaud your goal of peace.

 

(Thank you.)

 

Eliminating Money isn't the way to do it.

 

( I disagree)

 

You need to eliminate all needs and desires. And I don't see a way to do that without lobotomies on a massive scale.

 

(Again we differ. We don't need to eliminate all needs and desires, we have to try and cater to them as far as possible, within the bounds of common sense and practicality. This plan merely moves the goalposts of common sense and practicality and gives mankind a different set of values which are achievable and intrinsically good, without having to fill our 'caves' with 'stuff'.)

 

It would be far easier to eliminate corruption and see how much better off we are.

 

(Mankind has been trying to eliminate corruption for over 2000 years and has never succeeded. You state that it would be far easier to eliminate corruption than bring about what I advocate, which actually WOULD bring about a permanent end to corruption. How do YOU propose to bring about an end to corruption Z?)

 

Best regards, as usual,

Peacemaker.