Spinning Button On A String

[Turtle]

If I don't wake up dead tomorrow, ...

:cup:

 

Either I woke up not dead, or I'm dead & don't know it. Nonetheless, I have some new images of the Machine. (Shall we have a contest to name it!?:phones: )

First, details of the sliding (now rolling, as I added a bushing:hihi: ) pivot joint that connects the Main Pivot Arm to the Horizontal Actuator Arm:

 

 

 

I expect a slow down today as the clouds & mizzle have moved in & my rheumatiz is acting up. Plenty o' coffee & hunkerin' down is the order of the day; it gives the hares a chance to catch up.;) :cup:

[Turtle]

... I don’t believe anyone has determined, theoretically or experimentally, if an automatic scheme like this – where the pull/relax cycle is fixed, not controlled by some sort of feedback like what a human uses to work a disk-on-a-string – will work for more than a few cycles....

 

This very idea keeps popping into my cranium, particularly Craig's phraseology. What is implied, is that it is difficult for a person to operate the disk on a string, particularly in a regular fashion. The implication is true in my view, but now I have started thinking that it may present difficulty to humans because it requires a "fixed" , i.e. "machine-like" action. Similar to the difficulty of repeatedly accurately throwing darts, shooting a gun, pitching a ball, etc..

Anyway, it's a thought and moreover one that makes the machine working seem more likely.:phones:

[Turtle]

The second arm is ready for assembly.

I keep mulling the timing business, which is what I think Craig is thinking of as problematic. Since I have in mind to use a cam, it seems that at the very least the only way to change the speed may be to change the cam. Simply speeding up or slowing down the drive speed by the motor and/or transmission just won't do.:confused: At the very least I plan to make the removal of the cam as easy as possible because I expect to have to reshape/test, reshape/test. etc.. So far, except for the table saw for cutting the main deck, I have used only hand tools in the machine's construction.

Maybe a stack of selectable cams for changing speed!?:shade:

Discuss...;)

[TheBigDog]

On the topic of Craigs comment that you have been mulling over. I think it is more than a simple question of timing. It is a question of subconcious relexive change to the feedback of feeling the strings. While you may feel like you are doing things absolute rythlically, you are in fact constantly adjusting to the feel you get through the strings. It would be like making a machine that can ride a bike. When we are first learning it is terribly difficult. But when we are more experienced we can ride with no hands and do all sorts of other things that seemed so impossible when we were first learning. This is because we lose conciousness of the feedback loop involved with riding and it becomes reflex. My experience with the spinning disk I built with the kids leads me to the conslusion that feedback through feel is critical in keeping the machine going.

 

I think you can solve it with a couple of limit switches. You want to pull to a point and then stop pulling before the strings have unwound and start winding the other direction. Then you want to pull again before they have coasted to a stop to begin the forced process of changing direction of the disk. Learning to feel these points and knowing how much pressure to use are the critical points of feedback that you need to "teach" to the machine for it to work for a long period of time.

 

Bill

[Turtle]

On the topic of Craigs comment that you have been mulling over. I think it is more than a simple question of timing. It is a question of subconcious relexive change to the feedback of feeling the strings. While you may feel like you are doing things absolute rythlically, you are in fact constantly adjusting to the feel you get through the strings. It would be like making a machine that can ride a bike. .... My experience with the spinning disk I built with the kids leads me to the conslusion that feedback through feel is critical in keeping the machine going.

 

I think you can solve it with a couple of limit switches. You want to pull to a point and then stop pulling before the strings have unwound and start winding the other direction. Then you want to pull again before they have coasted to a stop to begin the forced process of changing direction of the disk. Learning to feel these points and knowing how much pressure to use are the critical points of feedback that you need to "teach" to the machine for it to work for a long period of time.

 

Bill

 

Aha! So you are betting against the machine.:hyper: At least as I have described it.:eek: I think that the cam will suffice without any switches and that once I "teach" the machine by trial & error modifications to the cam, it will continue to operate at a a fixed cycles per unit time as long as power is applied.

Sad as it makes me to say so, this whole exercise is akin to HB's thoughts on the difference between engineerring & theoretical physics. To whit, while I meant to have the main pivot arm axle in the center so as to not gain or lose any mechanical advantage, the sliding rolling pivot has negated that equality.

At the beginning of the machine's power stroke, the effective length of the main arm where it bears on the actuator arm pivot is less than the opposite end of the main arm; as the power stroke begins, that length is extended as well as the velocity (and so acceleration) of the actuator arm.

I no longer have a simple law of levers setup, and calculating the changing force and speed is no simple matter. Undaunted, I press on by intuition guided trial & error and asssisted by tobacco, coffee, und bier. .:esmoking: :cup: :beer:

[TheBigDog]

I am a firm beliver that Turtle is a living incarnation of Benjamin Franklin. And as such his machine will be a glorious success. I therefore bet that the Mark1 machine will exceed 2 minutes of sustained autonomous operation after being started within 3 days of Turtle describing it with the word KAZOWIE!.

Aha! So you are betting against the machine.

I placed my wager and I am sticking too it. :esmoking:

 

2 minutes would mean that you have a very effecively reproduced motion that overcomes the majority of the random noise of the process. I can't wait for the operational trials to begin. :hyper:

 

Bill

[Turtle]

While my wound heals I will continue to work on the design details of the addition of the next pair of arms to the bottom pivot of the main arm and their connection to the push rods & cam. This brings us to bier-thirty. :hyper:

 

I affixed the lower arms, and my fingers aren't as well off. I have used all the parts I had on hand and now must wait until I can afford to buy some needed fittings. As luck has it I have a new project I want to get to that requires money and the work table as well.:esmoking: :cup:

What'cha gonna do? :beer: Who ya gonna call?:eek:

[Turtle]

YouTube - machine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7-nxtVo-b0

:cup:

 

Post Script Take a look at this video and tell me someone hasn't copied my design:

YouTube - Disco giratorio - Spinning disc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sacYm_Y6J8

I wrote the guy a note and asked how he came to use the vesica piscis shape, but no word back yet.

[wine]

I met a boy with a 12 string acoustic guitar who had one of these things by a river not too far from my house.

 

Absolutely fascinating. I'd never heard one before until I passed his way a couple weeks ago.

 

It was no where near as large as yours, Turtle,

(Marvelous contraption, by the way)

Though it still sounded so swift and it haunted.

I'm glad to know there are other windy enthusiasts out there!

[Turtle]

I met a boy with a 12 string acoustic guitar who had one of these things by a river not too far from my house.

 

Absolutely fascinating. I'd never heard one before until I passed his way a couple weeks ago.

 

It was no where near as large as yours, Turtle,

(Marvelous contraption, by the way)

Though it still sounded so swift and it haunted.

I'm glad to know there are other windy enthusiasts out there!

 

Your post is so phat with synergetic symbolism wine, that I hardly know which way to turn. Best to go left and ask what shape was the boy's disk, and what if anything he told you about it?

If you have the time, I invite you to read this entire thread as I have put near all I know about the topic here.

[wine]

It was ovular and pointed at the tips,

designed with intertwining spirals-

I was impressed.

it was small enough to fit in his backpack,

but big enough to reverberate.

 

I'll skim through . .

see what I find.

 

This forum's interesting. Digital earth discussions. Beautiful.

[Turtle]

It was ovular and pointed at the tips,

designed with intertwining spirals-

I was impressed.

it was small enough to fit in his backpack,

but big enough to reverberate.

 

 

Mmmmm.... I want to get to the bottom of this, as the shape you describe (and the shape of the disk in the video I linked above by the other guy at YouTube) is the very shape I have described here. Inasmuch as I learned of it in a rather metaphysical way, I want to know if other cultures use this shape or if my posting here on instructions for this shape have been followed by others.

 

I have posted another short video at YouTube of my prototype machine being worked by hand, which I made just this evening. The challenge/contest I gave here earlier still stands.

YouTube - machine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7-nxtVo-b0

Fascinating!

[Turtle]

I love how science is always ammendable! :) I never thought to set one of my disks on fire (don't try this at home! :D :D ), but fortunately some others have; check it.

http://focus.aps.org/story/v5/st2

:beer:

[TheBigDog]

Impressive! I had somehow gotten into my head that one end would be fixed. The mobility of both ends makes it even more impressive! When are you going to post sound too?

 

Bill

[Turtle]

Impressive! I had somehow gotten into my head that one end would be fixed. The mobility of both ends makes it even more impressive! When are you going to post sound too?

 

Bill

 

I did consider fixing one end, but then the disk moves laterally in relation to the center of the platform. By having both ends active, the disk stays centered. A centered disk is both truer to the hand action and better suited to the acoustic & optical experiments I have in mind once the machine is autonomously operational.

The sound from the disk on the machine is virtually the same as the audio file attached to post #128, save for some clicking coming from one of the sliding pivots which I have yet to silence.

I checked a local hobby store last week for small gears and pulleys and they don't carry them! :Guns: I have access to a drill press if I want it, and I could use that in conjunction with a cutter on a Moto-tool to make my own gears & pulleys, but I hope to find these commercially. It is now down to finding a source and saving the money to purchase them.

In the mean time I can proceed to work on preliminary designs for the cam, which I plan to make double-ended (double-acting?), and the transmission which I intend to step down RPMs to drive the cam at approx. 45 RPM.

Given my habit of starting projects and never finishing, I have surprised even myself at having brought the machine this far. No doubt something to do with the wonderful feedback I have received here at Hypography. :hihi: Man I love this place! Takk und takk Tormod; you rock my world, and all you other great respondents roll it. :smart:

[wine]

Turtle transcends the archetype.

 

He didn't say much about the diable, just that it was a diable, laughing.

 

Great thread.

[Turtle]

I am, as some say, tickled pink over the Diable movement of these past few days! :D Delighted, delighted, delighted. :cocktail: :wink: :)

Much as I would like to have tracked down new information on the origins and use of the Diable, I no less like having tracked down these new references to myself.

I have communicated with the gentleman in Spain who posted the Diable video on YouTube and he tells me someone sent him the instructions and diagrams I posted here in the Gallery back in June of 2005. He followed the directions superbly and his workmanship is wonderful!:)

Because the term Diable is arcane and because making them in a vesica piscis shape came to me in a dream, I suspect the Diable in wine's anecdote has a similar origin.

Fascinating! Exhilarating! Empowering! ....Humbled freakin' Pink! :)[