Priests/believers in the army?

[Fishteacher73]

Not every problem...the re-drawing of the map after WWII was predominantly UK and French..

 

Well if you are the leading power in the world I feel it should be your responsibility not to abuse your position and help the less fortunate as opposed to driving them further into the ground...you wonder why there are terrorists.

 

If you treat others like crap, don't be suprised that they dont really like you.

 

The US has done many good things and many bad things. Unfortunatly most times people (countries, etc.) are rememberd for mainly the bad things they have done. Charles Manson wrote a Beach Boys song. He also orchestrated a mass murder. Guess what we remember? When a government has had a history of supporting opressive regimes for its own ends, most people will expect the trend to continue.

 

A capitalistic system will eventually lead to the haves and the have-nots. Our global economy is currently pretty much laissez-faire sytem. The have-nots are quickly outnumbering the haves. They too will soon want their piece of the pie. They will get tired of being the pack mule for the over-weight self-obsessed west.

[Fishteacher73]

I don't mean to get into a tit-for-tat argument over this. It seems that we have quite opposing opinions on this subject and I don't want this discussion gaining an angry or mean-spirtited hue. If I come across as confrontaional I appologize. I just like a good discussion. Its boring if everyone agrees...

[sanctus]

and there are people in uniform that die every single day to defend your right to think and say that.

I didnt read the other answers yet,but to this one I wanted to answer right away!

 

Nobody in uniform is dying for me to be able to say that, remember humanity is not by definition bad. Is there anyone dying now for me? Tell me who?

[Tormod]

I don't mean to get into a tit-for-tat argument over this.

 

I agree. This subject is perhaps a bit too touchy to expect a discussion to stay calm, but as long as we manage to respect each others I am sure we can handle it. Anyway, thanks to Sanctus for raising the issue in the first place.

[RiverRat]

Howdy ... this is my first post on this in-depth site. Forgive me if this has already been brought up but I am generally pressed for time and I didn't analyze all of the posts.

 

It would seem to me that the Priest is not actually condoning the aspects of War by simply being in the military or being in close proximity to 'murder'. The Priest would in my mind would be carrying out his 'holy duties' (ie ... last rights, mass, sermons, confessions, communion ...etc.). The Priest hates the Sin but loves the Sinner. It is said that ... War is Hell... so it would seem logical for a clergyman to be present as a sort of counterbalance.

 

I had the opportunity to speak with a neighbor who was on a ship in the Pacific during WWII that got KamiKazied (sp) and sunk. He was amazed with all the people who never knew God but suddenly were have long conversations with him ??? That spoke volumes to me. I could post other human (not physics/mathmatics) observations that he relayed to me in a lenghty conversation we had but I will save it for another time.

 

Good to be here ...

[infamous]

I don't mean to get into a tit-for-tat argument over this. It seems that we have quite opposing opinions on this subject and I don't want this discussion gaining an angry or mean-spirtited hue. If I come across as confrontaional I appologize. I just like a good discussion. Its boring if everyone agrees...

I'll ask to be pardoned for my sensitvity also Fishteacher73. No disrespect intended, we all need a little critcism at one time or another. Have a good day.

[Tormod]

Howdy ... this is my first post on this in-depth site.

 

Hi there, welcome! Make sure you post in our Introductions forum so we get to know you a little bit!

[pgrmdave]

For the US to continually propigate mass consuption and disposable life-styles we must essentially be crapping on the third world. Yes it is nice to get a new pair of Nikes, but is it nice that child labor produced them in Indoneasia? Is that really for the over-all good? You look cool in your new kicks, and hopefully the little kid that spent the last 13 hrs at the die press didn't nod off and forget to pull out his hand. But I suppose its OK.. He's making about 10 cents a day. That will buy him rice and porridge. Maybe he could even bring some back to his parrents as long as the corrupt US propped government has not ushered him off into some dark cornner and left him there dead.

 

This is not a product of our government, or even really our society, but of economics. It makes sense, dollarwise, to move manufacturing to places where the labor will work cheaply. The govenment can prevent this to some degree with tariffs, but higher tariffs have other problems, namely, it hurts the rest of the world. Treating cheap labor as though the people are dispensible is terrible, but if the government made it more expensive to manufacture overseas, the only effect would be that the people making less than a dollar a day are now making nothing a day. I don't believe that our government has any jurisdiction over overseas manufacturing, even if the company is incorporated in the US, although I may be wrong.

 

 

A capitalistic system will eventually lead to the haves and the have-nots. Our global economy is currently pretty much laissez-faire sytem. The have-nots are quickly outnumbering the haves. They too will soon want their piece of the pie. They will get tired of being the pack mule for the over-weight self-obsessed west.

 

Unfortunately, even when this happens, nothing will change. I think that the book 1984 displays this the best, explaining that after each revolution, all that really happens is that the haves and have-nots change, but that the basic economic levels remain the same.

 

 

I don't think there are a lot of Europeans who buy the Gulf War (nor Korea, nor Vietnam) as a self defence thing. It's a World Cop thing.

 

Neither Korea nor Vietnam were seen as religious wars. They were wars of ideology, and were explained as such. In Vietnam, we went in there to defend the French, there was no real feeling of religion, only of Democracy vs. Communism, the same as Korea. The current situation in Iraq is largely seen as good vs. evil and democracy vs. tyranny (oh the irony) . I think that most soldiers believe in god, and believe that they are doing the right thing, it is only natural from that thinking to assume that god is on your side.

[J.L. des Alpins]

I know of many priests, pastors and normal believers which join the army and even go to war. Isn't that hypocritical right at the basis?

For as long as Clausewitz’ “war being the continuation of politics by other means” stands, we will have to keep fighting for/against wars. Therefore, until humankind decides to redefine politics, anyone of us individually won’t have much impact on the big picture of war and peace.

 

Once you realize that war is to be with us for a long time, no matter what, then you have to find out what is most important for you, what your options are, and which option you select.

 

The best service a nation/state can do for its citizens is providing a rich education and the social means for each to be able to do what they select to do. With education, the people are better equipped to sincerely find what is most important to them, either intellectually, socially, spiritually, or emotionally.

 

Once we, as citizens, are confident that we all have received a rich and open-minded education, then we shall respect everyone’s choice.

 

How could one judge as hypocritical a priest who chooses to give spiritual and moral support to those of us who decided to fight for their country, knowing the horrors our servicemen and women are witnessing and experiencing out there, is beyond me.

 

Those among us that have chosen to be pacifists have the right to do so, and we shall respect their choice. To really make a difference in our war-waging society, we should help the pacifists in defining a kind of politics that does not need war as a means for pursuing its goals. While the pacifists are working hard on that aim, other of us will still have to hold guns to protect our sovereignty, because without it, the pacifists won’t have the environment to continue their search for practical peaceful politics.

 

Peace and war is very much a work in progress; we still have lots of education to receive, choices to make, and respect to give before it is completed.

[infamous]

Very well said J.L.desAlpins, logical and excellent post, well defined. Bravo!!!!

[IrishEyes]

I didnt read the other answers yet,but to this one I wanted to answer right away!

 

Nobody in uniform is dying for me to be able to say that, remember humanity is not by definition bad. Is there anyone dying now for me? Tell me who?

 

Those among us that have chosen to be pacifists have the right to do so, and we shall respect their choice. To really make a difference in our war-waging society, we should help the pacifists in defining a kind of politics that does not need war as a means for pursuing its goals. While the pacifists are working hard on that aim, other of us will still have to hold guns to protect our sovereignty, because without it, the pacifists won’t have the environment to continue their search for practical peaceful politics.

 

Thanks, JL... I think your explanation was right on, and I hope you don't mind me using part of it for my answer to sanctus. Further, sanctus, I know of many men and women that are in uniform today, right this very second... they are standing watch on a wall, or a ship, or in a lab, or somewhere else that you might never suspect... some may have guns in their hands, some may have binoculars, some may have keyboards... but the thing is, they are there.

 

Freedom is a lot of things, but it is not "free". I'm sure that there will be people that speak up here and tell me how we aren't really free, and all sorts of other bullsh*t, but i just don't buy that. I'm sitting here in my bed, next to the man that i chose to marry, after watching a great movie on my decent television and really nice dvd palyer, typing on a laptop connected to the internet by some usb thingy, feeling a bit sleepy, watching my hubby play around on slashdot, figuring out what i am going to wear to church in the morning... i think i'm about as free as any person on this planet... and i know that i would not be allowed to do the things that i am doing if there hadn't been a very long line of people before me that were not only willing, but actually did, die to make sure that i could stay free.

 

some of those people were Christians. Some of the people in the US military today are also Christians. Why do we go to war in the name of God? We don't. The president uses words that are most likely to illicit a certain response from a majority of people. Did I ever consider myself a Christian Soldier when I was in the Navy and my ship was sending planes to bomb Iraq in 1998? Not even for a second. But of course, that was under a different president, and he only invoked the name of God when he thought it might get him good press (or when a cigar and blue dress was involved, I'm sure!)

 

Anyhow, yes, touchy subject for some. i don't really understand the 'pacifist' mindset, although i do find it fascinating that some seem so ready to fight for their right to be pacifists... funny, that one.

 

no offense intended to any of you guys, just don't really get that one anymore. i understood it perfectly, until my daughter was born. i think she messed up my internal wiring though. i'd be perfectly willing to personally kill someone, or impersonally kill a lot of people, at the slightest hint that they would cause her pain... that sounds kinda psycho, doesn't it?

[sanctus]

This is an answer to the last post of Irisheyes and the post of J.L.des Alpins.

 

First of all it's not true that we individually don't have much impact on the big picture of war and peace, even with the actual political system. Simply because it's every individual that makes up politics (even if there isn't a direct democracy, your way of being with others influences the way the others are, so if you are a pacifist you may influence them to something).

 

Second: I hope I will never have to realize that war will always be with us (you may think it's just because I'm younger than you are, actually I don't know your age J.L, but Irish' yes), if the general well-being raises to acceptable levels, then wars will automatically decrease. I think the well-being will raise in the following years, so eventually war will not be anymore the compagnon of mankind.

 

Third: if I say a priest is hypocrite it doesn't imply that I don't respect his choice, but that my idea about his choice is that it is hypocrite (there is no incoherence I've got some friends from the extreme right, as long as we can talk about all the subjects we always respect the others choices, maybe saying that they are stupid, but still respect it). The only case in which I've got problems to respect a choice when I know the person did a choice just because of group pressure, but not because he really thinks.

 

fourth: if a priest chooses to go to support soldiers in a war, he either he fights as well or he doesn't.In the fromer case you agree that it would be hypocrite, so let's assume the latter. This priest supports people, he actually helps all this people witnessing (and making) horrors, therefore he helps people doing that what he is supposed to preach against, which is hypocrite. If he wouldn't go to support the soldiers, then the soldiers probably would crack up much earlier, therefore war would last less. I hope you see now why I say it is hypocrite, if not ask and I'll try explain better.

 

fifth: Nobody of you answered why it was not a paradox to be christian and go to war (to kill, remember the comandments). All you said is that defending a country is good as well (on what I don't agree, but that's another topic), this doesn't show why it's not a paradox.

 

sixth: Irish, how do feel now, knowing that you directly helped to kill people? Even if then you weren't a believer, now you are!

 

seventh: Why do you always say that there are soldiers needed to protect our freedom? You didn't tell me yet an example? Ok, the US and Russia brought my freedom when they ended WWII and since then nobody ever died for my freedom! So I'm pacifist, because I can't see a reason not to be!

[IrishEyes]

sanctus, thanks for your well thought out responses. I think we may have to agree to not agree on this subject. I will respect your right to believe whatever it is that you believe, but please understand that I think you are wrong, and I suspect you feel the same about me.

 

I'm not sure how old you are, but i don't think you are much younger than me, in physical years. i think that our life's experiences are drastically different, and that may be where some of our very different ideas come from, but i don't think age has much to do with it.

 

how do i feel, knowing i helped to kill people? i guess i feel about the same as people that don't believe in God. being a Christian doesn't make me better than anyone else, sanctus. it makes me want to live my life to different standards than before, true. but i am still a person. do you think you are better or worse than anyone that has fought in a war? do YOU condemn ME for being responsible for the death of people?

 

why do i always say that soldiers are needed to protect our freedom? look around you. how many countries are capable of maintaining a country without any type of military? in an utopian society, we wouldn't need armies, and war would be obsolete. However, we live with what we have, and it's not a utopia. if the US got rid of its' military, how long do you think it would be before another country attacked us, and took control of our country? no, i want you to REALLY think about that question... how long wold it take for another country to take over? *THAT* is why i say it is necessary for soldiers to protect our freedom.

[infamous]

Good day to you sanctus; Try this experiment one time: Take a twenty dollar bill out of you pocket and lay it on the side walk. Hide yourself so when someone comes along and notices the bill laying there, you will not be seen. I'll bet you another twenty dollars that they will pick it up and put it in their pocket. Moral of the story, experiment, if you want to keep what you have don't make it very easy for someone to walk of with it. That's why we have a mititary, seems quite simple even for a child to understand, don't you think?

[IrishEyes]

That's why we have a mititary, seems quite simple even for a child to understand, don't you think?

Actually, infamous, it may not be that cut and dried... sanctus, please forgive me. while i do remember that you are European, i often forget what country you are from, and that is why i owe you an apology.

 

one question though... aren't the guards for the Pope from your country? (off-topic, i know, but i've always wondered about THAT one, probably as you have wondered about priests in the army.)

[infamous]

Actually, infamous, it may not be that cut and dried... sanctus, please forgive me. while i do remember that you are European, i often forget what country you are from, and that is why i owe you an apology.

 

one question though... aren't the guards for the Pope from your country? (off-topic, i know, but i've always wondered about THAT one, probably as you have wondered about priests in the army.)

 

Yes Irish, thats very true. Not really that cut and dryed, however the point I'm trying to make is, our nation, for that matter any nation has their self interest to consider. Where an outside threat is conserned, a military deterrent is an absolute necessity. Otherwise we may as well through up our hands and surrender.

[sanctus]

I already gave the example of Costa Rica, which hasn't an army and is between panama and nicaragua which were in war against each other. So just for the matter that an army is neccessary.

 

Irish, I don't understand why it makes a difference if I'm from switzerland? Iss it because we are just a small country?

You and infamous claim that an army is needed as a deterrent for national security, right? But you have to agree that there would be a much cheaper option: take an organization like the UN (but more democratic with no vetos and something passes only with a good majority (eg. instead of 50.1% something like 75%)), that has a kind of world army which is there to use when a country (or a group) would try to do some war the majority doesn't agree; this world-army would as well have the role of universal deterrent.

 

No Irish, I don't condemn you for killing people, but I say you are responsible for it because instead of doing something against you did something in favor; therefore I'm as welll responsible as I did nothing against. No offense, I do not negatively judge you on that, I still hope you will come to the HCE, I just tell you my life-philosophy, you are responsible as well for what you don't do not only for what you do.