Hi from the S tip of Africa

[jab2]

Hi. My name is Cobus, but I respond equally well to my web name of jab2. I have been lurking on this forum for a while now, but decided to join after seeing some slightly inaccurate details in some postings which I could have corrected, if I was registered.

 

I currently live in Hartenbos, a little holiday hamlet on the Southern Coast of South Africa. I did my studies in Analytical Chemistry and worked for 10 years in the production lab of a military propellant and explosives factory. Something I should keep rather quite with the current security climate, is that I had to synthesize my own ultra pure explosives to be used as standards in my analysis.:pirate:

 

Well, all good thing come to an end so I moved on in live and made a big jump to the leather field, where I re-trained and have since been working as a Leather Technician in first the biggest and now the second biggest ostrich leather tannery in the world.

 

My hobbies are reading, or rather collecting info on whatever take my fancy, photography, some botany, geology and enjoying the outdoors on a motorbike.

 

So there you have it; a great recipe for a Jack of all trades, master of none, but I love live and what I can learn from it.

[sanctus]

Welcome to the forums, I'm happy you changed from lurking around into member (and also that you went away from army industry- see my signature :pirate: ). Also you increase the South African presence on this forums, I don't know how many there are, but I know two of our mods are...you my philosophy is the more people from different places join the more interesting the forums get.

[eric l]

Welcome, Cobus

 

Somehow I feel a bit related to South Africans. Probably part of the reason is that I can read Afrikaans, as it is so closely related to Dutch (do you speak Afrikaans by any chance ?). Anyway, no chance of feeling lonely on this forum.

[jab2]

Welcome to the forums, I'm happy you changed from lurking around into member (and also that you went away from army industry- see my signature :hihi: ). Also you increase the South African presence on this forums, I don't know how many there are, but I know two of our mods are...you my philosophy is the more people from different places join the more interesting the forums get.

 

Thanks. On the leaving the "army industry" bit, I have to disappoint you though. :hihi:

I feel that every person on earth can have his own views and there is place on the planet for the whole spectrum, from warlord to pacifist.

 

I think however, war serves a purpose. (I can here people say "That war mongering Apartheid Bas&*^%, but please bare with me)

 

Just count the war deaths since the start of recorded history and add to that their descendants, if the war casualties had lived. We would have had a space and food crisis like you would not believe.

 

Most people also does not realize that quite a lot of technological advances also have a war birth. For instance, the airplane started as a war machine and if it was not for bombers, Radar would not have been needed, so we would not have had microwave ovens to warm our food or a plane to travel to another continent. This media, the web, that we use to communicate on now, also started as a military project. Granted, some of these things will eventually have been discovered/invented without a military need, but without military money rushing R&D forward, it would have appeared at a trickles pace in our homes.

 

That said, I have seen war and do not wish for anyone to experience that if it can be helped. One has to however also see the wider picture, the more people that is saved from war and disease, the more people will dye from hunger. Yes, war is cruel, but so is doing out best to fill this planet with it's limited capacity.

 

Agree or disagree. That is my view and I respect your right do completely disagree from me.

[jab2]

Welcome, Cobus

 

Somehow I feel a bit related to South Africans. Probably part of the reason is that I can read Afrikaans, as it is so closely related to Dutch (do you speak Afrikaans by any chance ?). Anyway, no chance of feeling lonely on this forum.

 

Thanks Eric. Yes, I do speak Afrikaans en as jy stadig Hollands praat kan ek ook dit verstaan.:hihi: I might get a bit confused though with the amount of English words that has crept into the Dutch language lately.

[sanctus]

jab2, at least we agree on the basic philosophy: respecting the others views.

But to answer you why I don't agree with your reasoning:

 

first of all, it was said by the end of the 19th century that "wars and blood shedding (is this how you say it in english) is a necessity for society (actually if I remember right some said that war/blood shedding is a necessary cleansing bath for mankind)"...see the results of this philosophy in the two WW.

You're right that probably there would be much more people livng now (which is someting good) and that this would imply a food problem. Now, imagine that instead of putting all the money into army research it would be there for being put into food production research so that would solve the problem of big technological advances having a war birth.

Generally I believe that now the things that have had a war birth (also the net on which we are discussing by the way :hihi: ) it would be worse not to use them, but it is also the the way something is reached that counts annd not only the result: so if I would have the choice of a society where there may be a slower technological advancement but no war research or the current one I for sure would choose the former.

[jab2]

Sanctus, I find no fault with your reasoning or what you would like for us, peace and understanding amongst all people. I cannot see that happening though.

 

I do not know how well you known South Africa and it's people, but can assure you we will never achieve a situation where every South African is equal in opportunity and status to everyone else. There will always be some who want more for themselves than what they grant their fellows. This inequality leads to friction and as you know, enough friction leads to a fire. I cannot see that it will be different in other countries.

 

Man cares for himself first, then his wife and children, then his family, then his tribe and then his fellow citizens. I am sure religion should be in their as well. ;) Somewhere along this line he will reach the end of his resources and have to decide who should get what is available and who will not get. It is not rocket science the realize that he will choose to provide for those nearer to him and by doing so relegate those further on the list to a second position. This is the start of conflict.

 

As technology gets better, more effective killing machines will be used to "sort out" the ones that wants to "dominate us" and I cannot see an end to this, other than having a absolutely equal distribution of resources. Something which would be impossible to achieve as some people will have to see to this distribution and they will have opportunity to alter the distribution to favor them and their kin. Remember the feudal system in Europe.

 

It would be interesting to know how you would tackle this absolute urge of humans to harm each other if they THINK they have been treated as second rate citizens?

[sanctus]

If you look at my second signature you see that I believe utopies. I really fail to see why if history shows that there have always been wars there should always be. Same as your argument: "we will NEVER achieve"; don't you believe in mankind?

It seems to me that your point is that as humans behave now it will never happen (with what I agree), but this doesn't imply that they will never change behaviour.

As to

It would be interesting to know how you would tackle this absolute urge of humans to harm each other if they THINK they have been treated as second rate citizens?

it is as we learn already being kids there are always situations of conflict, question is how you resolve it. Already nowadays, there are people who don't have that urge to harm in such cases-it is not something general. That's my view at least.

[Boerseun]

Hey there Cobus, and welcome to Hypo!

 

Also a local outjie, I guess my name and sig kinda gives it away ;)

 

(The other SA member here is Chacmool - she's in Centurion, I'm up in Hartbeespoort, at the dam. And we're both as Afrikaans as bobotie en koeksisters!)

 

Any case, coming back to your post regarding warfare:

 

We, as humans, have a tendency to view ourselves as removed from nature. We're not. There's a certain niche we fill, and that niche can accomodate a specific number of people. We can increase the carrying capacity of our specific niche through research in medicine, agricultural science, and technology in general. And whenever a certain invention or advance increases the niche's carrying capacity, human population numbers will steadily increase up to the limits of the niche. These limits are constantly tested and probed, with famine being a possible result when we overstep the line.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with warfare. But my point is that humans will always die in nasty ways. In a hypothetical situation, let's say that nobody dies of old age: Pretty soon, the planet will burst at the seams with people and a massive die-off will take place, caused by global famine. That will be unavoidable. If Germany, for instance, can carry 80 million people, and a war kills off 10 million, Germany won't forever exist with 70 million people. Pretty soon, the ten million dead will be replaced, and the population will even out again at 80 million, satisfying the human load capacity of Germany.

 

I'm kinda rambling on here, but the point is that death in itself is unavoidable. If we don't kill people in wars, they will die of something else, say, hunger. Then we will have massive food aid distributed to all these countries until we've stemmed the famine, only to find out that all these people are now dying of malaria. That will suck. Then we'll bomb all the swamps with DDT until we realise that cancer is killing those that aren't being killed by malaria anymore. Then we'll invent a cure for cancer only to see AIDS turning into the leading killer. Then we get force-fed governmental medical advice telling us to quit smoking because we'll get lung cancer and die. If you don't die of lung cancer, you'll die of something else. And then that must be stopped. I wonder if anybody actually dies of "natural causes" anymore. Isn't a mosquito carrying malaria a "natural cause"? If my granpa keels over from a stroke, it's not a "natural cause" any more. The doctors will tell you he died from years of eating wrong foods, etc.

 

Point is, humans are mortal natural beings, occupying a niche, the limits of which are constantly being tested, and expanded by such diverse instruments such as technological research and, amongst others, warfare. And that being the case, I don't see it as a good or a bad thing. I see it simply as one of the darker facets of humanity. But in accepting that, we don't have to approve of it. Heck. I'm rambling, allright.

 

I think (and this, of course, is solely my opinion) that the zeal with which do-gooders try and confront causes of death (be it disease, hunger, or even warfare) is simply a kind of a misplaced moral imperative. Albeit with the best possible intentions.

 

Let's take this a bit further:

 

Nowadays, the world is trying to find solutions to all causes of "preventable" deaths. So, in the final analysis, what's the ultimate intention? For the whole of humanity to die in accidents or natural disasters?

 

I think the best thing is to not worry about it. Just make sure that if war breaks out, you're not there. Drink your beer, smoke your cigarette, and eat your red meat. Because eventually, we're all going to croak. And I'm sure that worrying about every little detail that might make you live a few minutes longer or shorter will suck the last bit of possible joy out of our quota of days on this planet.

 

I have an appointment with the Grim Reaper, and I don't like being late. It's a punctuality thing, you see.

 

Cheers! (says Boerseun, whilst lighting up another cigarette and cracking a fresh Hansa Pilsner)

[jab2]

I really fail to see why if history shows that there have always been wars there should always be. Same as your argument: "we will NEVER achieve"; don't you believe in mankind?

It seems to me that your point is that as humans behave now it will never happen (with what I agree), but this doesn't imply that they will never change behaviour.

 

Let me give you a short analogy to show why I believe it will not change. When I was a kid, it was a craze to have a pet crow and teach it to talk. Yes, we are a bit low on parrots in South Africa and crows can also talk. In any case, although these crows could utter some words, in Afrikaans of all languages, which is a difficult language:), and picked up some nasty habits from observing humans, they were not really good at having a conversation with. As a 6 year old kid, I deduced very early in my live that you cannot have a discussion with a crow and never will, purely by observing a lot of crows, I stopped trying to have discusions with the crow. I only later found out that the talking is only mimickery and that the crow itself do not understand that he is making a sound which we as humans interpret as speech which prove scientifically that you cannot talk to crows. Now by observing a couple of hundred thousand years of human behavior (from history books, I'm not that old :eek_big:) I have formed the assumption that this warlike behavior will not change as it was constantly there all these years. The tools changed, but the behavior stayed the same. Yes, an assumption, so I am open to a scientific explanation that it can change.

 

it is as we learn already being kids there are always situations of conflict, question is how you resolve it. Already nowadays, there are people who don't have that urge to harm in such cases-it is not something general. That's my view at least.

 

With that I agree completely. One only have to have two kids and give a present to only one to observe this behavior. Now where does this behavior come from? I also had fights over possessions as a kid and I could not have learned this from my Father or Mother, whom was very fellow human loving people; to such an extend that they will harm the own progression through live to help others.

 

I am sure one can teach out this tendency to fight, if it is culture acquired, but if it is not done to all the peoples of the world at once, it will never succeed. The unconverted side will simply kill the pacifist side in an absolutely one sided war.

 

So I do not think human cannot change, with regards his propensity for war, but I do not see it ever happened as it is not only the human mind but a whole pallet of different colored things that must mix for this to happened and every painter know by mixing different colour, one goes darker, and eventually end with black, not white. Evil will always win over good. I so wish it was not like that.:shrug:

[jab2]

Also a local outjie, I guess my name and sig kinda gives it away :eek_big:

Het so afgelei. Net twee UserNames wat beter sou gewees het, "Boerewors" en "Brandewyn en Coke".:shrug:

 

We, as humans, have a tendency to view ourselves as removed from nature. We're not. There's a certain niche we fill, and that niche ........................... the last bit of possible joy out of our quota of days on this planet.

 

I have an appointment with the Grim Reaper, and I don't like being late. It's a punctuality thing, you see.

 

I completely agree with that. Hard as it is, one must eventually die, and the how, where and when are not always by your own choosing. The whole problem the last two centuries with the explosion of technology is this urge to cheat death. Mankind still see earth's resources as infinite. Unfortunately we have completely populate every habitable corner of this planet and we cannot move to a more fertile plain and new waterhole to harvest our grain like the people of the Fertile Cresent or to the next patch of wild grass like the Pre Pottery Neolithic people.

 

and cracking a fresh Hansa Pilsner)

Sies, waars die skop?:)