Why do gardeners use products such has perlite and vermiculite

[Flapjack]

It surprises me when people choose to use peat free composts under the pretext that they saving the planet, then add perlite or vermiculite to the compost. Each of which uses huge ammounts of fuel to reach the temperature for exfoliation, when river washed grit sand is much better for drainage and AFP ( Air filled porosity ) Also we have the Coir bricks these are said to be real earth friendly but tons of oil are burnt shipping the coir around the world.

[Michaelangelica]

Good point

I have no idea of how perlite and vermiculite are made.

They are very expensive.

They are also used also by the building industry

 

But while America (USA) dumps its garbage in the sea why worry?

 

As an ex-nurseyrman we use them for a number of reasons

1 vermiculite It absorbs water; keeps seeds moist, saves water, helps plants that like a lot of water, and helps germination because of this water holding capacity. It is sterile and protects seeds from fungus etc. Especially organic seeds which are not treated with fungicide, pesticide etc

2 Perlite

Helps drainage, is sterile, lightens the weight of plants, so transport costs are lower etc

 

I morn the loss of real peat.

Now all you can get is coco peat.

It is no where near as good as peat/sand mixes for striking cuttings.

I have tried a pine bark substitute which is a bit better.

AND

What about the odd viking hoard s/swords that is not being discovered because we no longer can harvest it?

It is very acid and again i think it inhibits rotting of cuttings in favour of rooting

[eric l]

PERLITE is a volcanic glass, that contains a considerable amount of water. By heating it to about 900°C, it can expand to 10 - sometimes even to 20 - times its original volume. In this expanded form, it is used for insulation, as a waterabsorber or water storage medium but also as filtration aid...

VERMICULITE is a clay type mineral; like perlite it can be expanded by heating to 900°C (though I bleive the rate of expansion is lower than with perlite). It is used mainly in the same applications.

 

In a lab or pilot plant environment, both are widely used for preparing controled soils, e.g. when devellopping new culture variants by cross breeding.

I have some experience with the use of this products as filtration aids, and from what I remember the prices are a bit high for extensive use in agriculture or horticulture.

[Peregrine]

It surprises me when people choose to use peat free composts under the pretext that they saving the planet, then add perlite or vermiculite to the compost. Each of which uses huge ammounts of fuel to reach the temperature for exfoliation, when river washed grit sand is much better for drainage and AFP ( Air filled porosity ) Also we have the Coir bricks these are said to be real earth friendly but tons of oil are burnt shipping the coir around the world.

 

The soil here in Delaware is clay. You have to add something to lighten it up and get good drainage if you want to have sucess with your gardening. We also use peat moss but I just assume I'm buying peatmoss, haven't read the label, quess I should. What other cheap alternatives are there???:)

[maikeru]

I prefer using organic material like bark, coffee grounds, leaves, etc., and charcoal in my potting or garden mixes. Perlite and vermiculite seem to dissolve over time into a white, fine gloop on their own and actually clog the soil rather than lighten it as they do initially. Charcoal chunks, on the other hand, are about guaranteed to last forever and provide excellent drainage, aeration, and fungus and bacteria love the little niches and holes in them. Go, go terra preta!

 

Also, another thing to try for seedlings/cuttings is a humidity chamber with washed pebbles or sand and a cup of water in the middle, sealed by plastic wrap or a glass/plastic lid or a container greenhouse. I usually sprout seedlings in a container greenhouse over 2-5 days, then move them to where or what I want to plant them in.

[Michaelangelica]

Also, another thing to try for seedlings/cuttings is a humidity chamber with washed pebbles or sand and a cup of water in the middle, sealed by plastic wrap or a glass/plastic lid or a container greenhouse. I usually sprout seedlings in a container greenhouse over 2-5 days, then move them to where or what I want to plant them in.

What a great idea! I usually almost fill a pot with potting mix then put a layer (handful) of vermiculite on this, then the seeds, then another handful of vermiculite. This sandwiches the seeds in a moist, sterile miix . This is especially good for organic seeds that don't have a coating of fungicide or pesticide.

I have good success except when i forget to water (I use a little pump sprayer recycled from the Kitchen cleaner) Lately I have not been well, so lost a lot of spring seeds as a result of not keeping the vermiculite wet. After abit of promising rain it has gone dry here again. (71% of NSW drought declared)

Your method sounds worth a try, and abit more foolproof if you can't or forget to keep the vermiculite moist. Can I have it?

 

You do have to be careful with charcoal. Too much will make the soil alkaline

 

Originally Posted by Flapjack View Post

n river washed grit sand is much better for drainage and AFP ( Air filled porosity ) Also we have the Coir bricks these are said to be real earth friendly but tons of oil are burnt shipping the coir around the world.

Re Washed river sand as an alternative in potting mixes.

Isn't this doing just as much environmental damage ripping out sand from rivers? It would be also more expensive to ship as coir and peat can be compressed into bricks.

Also much coir is made in by poor pacific nations who make an income from the coir (from coconuts). Personally i have found it OK in potting mixes or as a mulch but not so hot when making cuttings.

I do mis my "environmentally unfriendly" peat. By adding a handful to a standard, cheap potting mix you can quickly and easily change the pH and water holding capacity of the mix. You can go from potting camellia to potting lavenders in a blink by using ,or not using, the peat.

I have yet to test the pH of coir- Does anyone know what pH it is?

 

Really everything you look at in the environment is a trade off.;)

Do you want new trees and plants in the environment? :hihi:

Do you want houses to be insulated with vermiculite and so use less energy for heating cooling?:doh:

There are alternatives for builders (rock wool , Pink bats, paper-don't know how they are made either) and I am sure builders would use the bulk of vermiculite it is too expensive for nurserymen to use very much. Maybe attack builders before you 'attack' gardeners.

 

The only way to really save the environment is to shoot yourself (then you stop using up the planets resources) and have yourself buried vertically, with a tree on top instead of a gravestone.:)

I think there are bigger fish to fry environmentally then vermiculite and perlite. :cup:

What about the island of plastic the size of Texas off the USA coast? Plastic that is breaking down into tinnier bits so now it is in the food chain from plankton up. I think you are still dumping your rubbish in the sea. (?) (Although thankfully USA stopped tossing in barrels of uranium waste in 1990s).

 

Having said that, it doesn't hurt to stop occasionally and ask why you do use something. Is it environmentally friendly and is there a better alternative?

Thanks to maikeru's practical suggestion I now have a new way of germinating seeds.

 

PS maikeru If you want good germination of Australian natives use "smoky water." Water that you have blown lots of smoke through!!

[Ganoderma]

perlite and vermiculite are also used in mushroom cultivation. although there are better materials they are commonly used in non-commercial type grows.

 

i agree tehre are better alternatives....but people are lazy and they find these 2 items in every stores shelf.

[maikeru]

What a great idea! I usually almost fill a pot with potting mix then put a layer (handful) of vermiculite on this, then the seeds, then another handful of vermiculite. This sandwiches the seeds in a moist, sterile miix . This is especially good for organic seeds that don't have a coating of fungicide or pesticide.

I have good success except when i forget to water (I use a little pump sprayer recycled from the Kitchen cleaner) Lately I have not been well, so lost a lot of spring seeds as a result of not keeping the vermiculite wet. After abit of promising rain it has gone dry here again. (71% of NSW drought declared)

Your method sounds worth a try, and abit more foolproof if you can't or forget to keep the vermiculite moist. Can I have it?

 

Go right ahead. :hihi: I am not the first one to originate it, but I have tested a couple variants on this basic idea of a humidity chamber over the last couple years. I like its hands-off approach to gardening and its self-regulating nature. When you do it right, almost any seeds can be grown quickly and without too much trouble.

 

What are important factors though are a level of cleanliness (not absolute sterility, but relatively clean is important) and not too little or too much moisture (because too much moisture will bring on fungus, bad bacteria, and kill the seeds quick). A nice balance of temperature (20-30 C, depending on type of seeds), moisture (just a few drops condensing on the sides of container and soil/pebbles are damp, but not fully wet), and light can speed it up. I find they don't do too well in dark. Soft light seems the best for most of them, and encourages them to come up more compact, well-formed, and robust, light to dark green, and ready to grow in tougher conditions. In the dark, they'll come up spindly and yellowish...and don't make the adjustment to full or strong light and drier conditions as well.

 

Another commercial variant of this idea can be found in the plastic baskets & containers which I used as a child to grow daikon radish sprouts cleanly and safely for salads. We ordered these for sale from Japan at my parents' grocery store but people here never purchased them...so we took them home to use. I don't know if I can find a picture for this (or I can take one later of my old ones), but here's the general idea. A clear plastic container is filled with tap water. On top of this, you can put a white plastic basket with tiny holes in it which allow water to seep upward and into contact with the daikon seeds. The holes are small enough that the seeds won't fall through. You add just enough water so that the seeds will always remain partly wet and exposed to air. This can be put on the windowsill and exposed to light. Seeds should sprout a few days later and will try to send their roots down into the water while they grow upright. (When they reach desired size, then you pluck them out and eat them in your salads.) This could be modified easily by putting a plastic or glass top on of some sort, to help speed germination. Water should be changed every couple days to keep your seeds and container clean. You can also put paper towels, tissue paper, or thin fleecy cotton on top of the holes of the basket to get a "wicker effect" and provide bedding for the seeds to sprout on.

 

Wash hands with soap and hot water before any germination projects to keep it clean and promising for your little babies.

 

You do have to be careful with charcoal. Too much will make the soil alkaline

 

It's been a while since I've read papers on terra preta, but I remember that the addition of charcoal to soil, even in large amounts, pushed the pH to around 7.5-8.0. Most plants seem to be all right with this. If needed, pH can be controlled by introducing more compost and organic matter. Things like coffee grounds are pretty good to bring down the pH of the soil a notch or two, because of their high content of complex organic acids (things like tannic acids). For really acid-loving plants like blueberries or cranberries, I would definitely make an effort to keep the soil well-supplied with acidic items like coffee grounds, diluted vinegar (acetic acid), or pine needles and bark.

 

Another thing to do to keep the soil from becoming too acidic or basic is to keep it aerated and porous. If there is not enough aeration in the soil, it will promote the growth of anaerobic organisms, which often create a lot of anaerobic decay, fermentation, and acidity, that can harm or kill the plant's roots. If there is enough air and water getting to the roots and aerobic microbes living down there, they should create an environment that is nice for the plant and its little friends.

 

Re Washed river sand as an alternative in potting mixes.

Isn't this doing just as much environmental damage ripping out sand from rivers? It would be also more expensive to ship as coir and peat can be compressed into bricks.

Also much coir is made in by poor pacific nations who make an income from the coir (from coconuts). Personally i have found it OK in potting mixes or as a mulch but not so hot when making cuttings.

I do mis my "environmentally unfriendly" peat. By adding a handful to a standard, cheap potting mix you can quickly and easily change the pH and water holding capacity of the mix. You can go from potting camellia to potting lavenders in a blink by using ,or not using, the peat.

I have yet to test the pH of coir- Does anyone know what pH it is?

 

I actually suggest collecting pebbles or little rocks from your garden or local area, washing them with soap and water, then using them. I think about pea-sized is ideal. Now, you might say this is harming the local environment, but I think it's still better than digging up rocks or sands from a riverbed or so.

 

I haven't used coir, but I have heard that it does not perform as well as standard peat in potting mixes or for growing seedlings and plants in general. It's possible that coir, coming from the cononut husk/shell, may have complex organic acids (phenols, tannins, etc.) in it, in addition to its major composition of cellulose and lignin, that would bind to and inactivate nutrients present in the rest of the mix, water, or fertilizer. If it does have complex organic acids in it, it would make the pH of coir slightly acidic.

 

Coffee grounds are known to have a high concentration of organic acids in them, have a high surface area and large amount of porosity, and so they take a while to break down (tannins, etc. are rather toxic to microbes and fungi) and also act as excellent "filters" or "sponges" to suck up minerals, organic molecules, etc. I use this ability in my potting mixes to suck up extra nutrients from added fertilizer and seaweed, with the hope that the coffee grounds and charcoal will help release them as time-controlled fertilizers, especially as the coffee breaks down and becomes a fertilizer itself. Since I produce a lot of spent coffee grounds all the time, this is the best way I've found of "disposing" of them to my benefit.

 

If I overproduce coffee grounds, I also leave them to be chowed on by fungi in a closed terrarium and enrich the terra preta there as it decomposes. Keep away from kids, prying pets, or easily offended wives/mothers. I currently have a pile being dismantled by my little fungi helpers in a terrarium. It is sealed, so that fungal spores will not leak out and become a health hazard, and decomposition will take place rapidly and safely. I much prefer this to dumping them in the garbage, where they will end up in some landfill.

 

Having said that, it doesn't hurt to stop occasionally and ask why you do use something. Is it environmentally friendly and is there a better alternative?

Thanks to maikeru's practical suggestion I now have a new way of germinating seeds.

 

PS maikeru If you want good germination of Australian natives use "smoky water." Water that you have blown lots of smoke through!!

 

Er, I hope I won't have to shoot myself to save the Earth, but I hope that finding better and more efficient ways to live and hurt the Earth less will make the place a little cleaner and greener. :) I will also try the smoky water idea. Utah has a lot of desert and mountains, and I think many of the native plant species here rely on fire to help germinate their seeds or at least prepare the soil and clear an area of competing vegetation. We have a lot more forest fires and wild fires than we should, because the ecology and forest ecosystems are out of whack here in the American West. We also are in a drought. If I ever visit Australia, I think I'll find the deserts remind me of home. :)

[Buffy]

This is completely orthogonal to the intent of this thread, so please excuse the digression, but...

 

When I was a kid, there was a teacher at my school who every year did an art project carving vermiculite. I didn't have his class, but my understanding was that it was a liquid, and everybody had to bring a cardboard milk carton to class, and it was filled with the stuff. A week or so later it was popped out of the carton and was this carvable, hard-putty like stuff that made for an easy way to make cool statues.

 

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

 

Making pretty--but inanimate--things, :)

Buffy

[Michaelangelica]

No Buffy. I never did art; though my youngest daughter who I used to drag reluctantly around art galleries, to my surprise, has recently graduated with a major in it.

 

Vermiculite as used in horticulture is heat treated that makes it fluffy and light like popcorn.

I vaguely remember it also has a very high 'cation exchange capacity' (CEC)

I actually suggest collecting pebbles or little rocks from your garden or local area, washing them with soap and water, then using them. I think about pea-sized is ideal. Now, you might say this is harming the local environment, but I think it's still better than digging up rocks or sands from a riverbed or so.

I just purchased a bag of RR clay terracotta pebbles from a local nursery *** aquarium/hydroponics store. (Made in Germany!) They are big pea sized. I was going to use them in Terra preta mixes but I think your seed raising idea might be a better use although they do float a bit

[Flapjack]

Not been around for a while and lost the thread a little. Vermiculite is a type of rock called Mica. It is heated to very high temperatures, I think above the 900c that was quoted earlier. As it is discharged from the furnace it is exfoliated by a rapid cooling spray of cold water. A friend of mine worked on the exfoliation to try and introduce fertiliser into the vermiculite via the cooling sprays on the exfoliation. In some ways he was quite successfull but the problem was that the finished compost was around $17 for a 75litre bag ( sorry about the use of litres but I only use pints for beer)

 

With the clay granules I have used quite a lot in trials, finding the best to be from Hydroleca and the cheapest in the form of cat litter.

 

River washed sand does very little damage to the planet as a lot of the rivers are dredged anyway.

 

My problem is the composting of materials. Here in the Uk we all have a green bin for garden clippings cardboard etc. Great you may say, it is until you look deeper into it. It is common knowledge that decaying material releases carbon, methane and such but using oil to fire accelorator furnaces is not on. Limitations on the thickness of timber that can be put in is rediculous as they say they cannot treat it. What the mean is they can't make a fast buck out of it by selling the composted waste off to the compost manufacturers. They could turn it into charcoal and save us from importing huge tonages from places like Brazil and Nigeria. Next time you shop for BBQ charcoal have a look where it comes from.

[Drosera]

Hi,

 

For those of you worried about getting sand from rivers, might I suggest collecting sand from ant hills? I have collected a few containers full for my own planting needs. The sand is fine and clean, and helps loosen regular potting soils when I need it.

 

The best places to collect it are road sides or driveways, as the cement allows for an easy collection using a small brush and dustpan.

 

For the professional grower, this wouldn't work of course. But for those of us with just a few house plants, the supply is always there.

 

[Hill]

This is completely orthogonal to the intent of this thread, so please excuse the digression, but...

 

When I was a kid, there was a teacher at my school who every year did an art project carving vermiculite. I didn't have his class, but my understanding was that it was a liquid, and everybody had to bring a cardboard milk carton to class, and it was filled with the stuff. A week or so later it was popped out of the carton and was this carvable, hard-putty like stuff that made for an easy way to make cool statues.

 

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

 

 

Buffy

 

 

Like this? Art Education

[Flapjack]

Hi,

 

For those of you worried about getting sand from rivers, might I suggest collecting sand from ant hills? I have collected a few containers full for my own planting needs. The sand is fine and clean, and helps loosen regular potting soils when I need it.

 

The best places to collect it are road sides or driveways, as the cement allows for an easy collection using a small brush and dustpan.

 

For the professional grower, this wouldn't work of course. But for those of us with just a few house plants, the supply is always there.

 

Long way to come for sand, we do not have ant hills

[Buffy]

Like this? Art Education

That sure looks like it!

 

I've always wanted to do it as a home art project with my daughter, and now I have instructions!

 

Thanks Hill!

 

Whittling vermiculite, ;)

Buffy

[Michaelangelica]

That sure looks like it!

 

I've always wanted to do it as a home art project with my daughter, and now I have instructions!

 

Thanks Hill!

 

Whittling vermiculite, ;)

Buffy

You live and learn.

Thanks Hill

 

Buffy the "whittled" bits would be great fro the garden.

How old is you daughter?

[Racoon]

Vermiculite is great mixed in with soil for plant growth.

 

You can buy bags of it pretty cheap.. I always try to mix in a nice portion with the soil I'm making.

 

Some say its the air pockets that make it so great when the roots of plants try to penetrate it..

I dunno'...