Nature's deviants

[motherengine]

i remember reading in darwin's work the proposition that if one could show an organ in the body that is a detriment to the body as a whole that the theory of natural selection would crumble. does not the brain (or more specifically a brain with a neocortex) fall into this category? personally i do not believe darwins shared theory is this fragile but the problem of the human brain and its uncomfortable place in the natural world is an interesting one. is it just that thought ensnared in the webbing of language causes progressive thought, conceptualiztion and a level of self-awareness that combined with opposable thumbs inderectly causes such things as mass muder, suicide, pollution...etc? is original sin and the fall of mankind a parable for dawning awareness or a spiritual truth beyond the ability of science to test and measure? why do we stand out so abrasively on the face of the natural world? accident? flawed design? alien interference? ;)

[Tormod]

The brain does not cause mass murder or suicide in most people. You tend to generalize...the brain is also capable of wonderful art - and philosophical questions about nature, like your own. I don't think the brain would qualify as a detriment.

[pgrmdave]

Evolution produced intelligence because it helped us survive, even if it does produce deaths, the general effect is to promote life.

[Turtle]

I can think of some other body parts causing a lot 'o problems. ;) ;)

[motherengine]

for the sake of argument: i did not generalize that the brain causes anything but alluded to the idea that the propensity for destruction stems indirectly from some of the brains functions. art and philosophy are nice and may serve a purpose for the brain but they are not essential to basic survivial. the point which i was making is that humans are out of sinc with the rest of the natural world. what is the good of progressive thought for nature if, while entertaining ourselves with art and philosophy, we end up destroying ourselves and much of the natural world as well in the process. nature runs its course of survival with or without human beings yet the potential for destruction that the human mind has devoloped is not matched by any advantages in natural maintanance, only in fixing what we our selves have wrought upon it.

[Turtle]

Nor the potential for world salvation. No other creature is going to warn of an oncoming hurricane in order to preserve life & environment. ;)

[Aquagem]

what is the good of progressive thought for nature if, while entertaining ourselves with art and philosophy, we end up destroying ourselves and much of the natural world as well in the process.

 

That's called... natural selection.

 

We act as though we have escaped it, which is true enough in the short run... but I'd say the jury is very much out when it comes to assessing the long-term evolutionary value of intelligence and Big Brains. We like to congratulate ourselves for the problems we solve, but don't take note that we have caused most of them in the first place. When the last human dies, I'm pretty sure there will be a cockroach there to feast for a few days at least.

[Turtle]

Ah contraire. In the hurricane example I posted, "we" don't cause them. Further, I think we do take note; at least I took note of you taking note, so at least we two take note. Lasltly, there may or may not ever be a last human; if a cockroach munches on a last human, does he make a sound? ;)

[geko]

...if a cockroach munches on a last human, does he make a sound? ;)

 

Does the cockcroach have ears? ;)

[motherengine]

i am not sure what you mean by the hurricanes statement. humans helping themselves does not bring salvation to the natural world. the natural world is in no need of salvation. of couse there is the kubrick/clarke philosophy that humans can utilize forced evolution through science to ensure nature's eternal survival by the creation of a starchild like being. you never know. ;)

[pgrmdave]

I think that people are trying to say that Darwin was wrong; organs that harm us may be developed, the organisms would simply be weeded out through natural selection. That would mean that the idea of the brain as a damaging organ would not refute evolution.

[zadojla]

... but I'd say the jury is very much out when it comes to assessing the long-term evolutionary value of intelligence and Big Brains. ...

 

Absolutely. I read somewhere, which I cannot now footnote, but I believe was in a book by Stephen Jay Gould, that the median duration of a species was 10 million years. Since humans have been human for maybe 1,000,000 years, there's a long time to go before we are even average.

 

I know where I'm betting my money.

[Turtle]

As we seem to have the same origin as everything else here, I see no reason to believe we are any more deviant than anything else. ;)

[motherengine]

two boys are born of the same mother. one boy gives his mother flowers. the other boy kills her. i think it is safe to say that the second boy is more deviant.

[pgrmdave]

de·vi·ant adj.

Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

 

n.

One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.

 

In order to describe deviancy, it is necessary to describe the norm.

[IrishEyes]

In order to describe deviancy, it is necessary to describe the norm.

 

Oh wow, if things don't keep popping up all over the place, huh? Yeah, Dave, it seems that we will have to figure out what the accepted social standards are... almost right back to a moral code, eh? I LOVE THIS PLACE!!

 

This seems to be a cool thread though. Very nice. I'll have to keep checking back on this one...

[motherengine]

the norm of the natural world does not appear to be building cities and freeways and nuclear refineries. i guess this could be viewed as adaption to a unique situation like being aware of one's own mortality breeds the necessity of distraction or utilization of faith. but the man who robs a store killing the owner in the process is also adapting to his situation. this does not mean that he is not acting deviantly as well. but to be very specific about what makes human beinf nature's deviants i will offer one example: humans use symbolic language.