Evolution [Need some help here]

[Rizwan Bin-Qasim]

Basically let me, explain what is going on. I am from another forum and I was having a debate with someone on the subject of "Evolution vs Creation" now am not a scientist, so am basically stuck.

 

Here is what he said;

Regarding ur comments on science being deception. common islamic [Pig] thought. anything that doesnt agree with the Koran [cock] must be a lie/conspiracy/fallacy. give me some evidence. YOU share 98% of your genes with a chimapnzee. you pig muslim dog

 

So I replayed with this;

You share round about the same with a banana dose that mean we evolved from a banana your argument on the basis of DNA is laughable.

Basically what you are saying if I had a rat in a cage for billions of year it will change into maybe say your mother? lol

 

Am getting pretty annoyed with this guy so I need some help on how I can refute him and the theory of evolution.

[pgrmdave]

Are you trying to refute evolution, or support something else?

[IrishEyes]

Am getting pretty annoyed with this guy so I need some help on how I can refute him and the theory of evolution.

Welcome to our Forums, but I think you may have come to the wrong place. First of all, we do not allow any of our members to speak with other members like you have quoted from your other site. While there are often very heated debates regarding evolution and creation, we ask that our members refrain from being abusive to each other. If abuse occurs in the fashion that you have indicated, the post will be removed, and the poster warned. If it continues, the poster will be banned from our site.

Furthermore, this site welcomes people from all walks of life, regardless of their religious/non-religious affiliation, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, pigment of skin, color of eyes, vocal accent, lactose tolerance, or any other label that can be placed on humans. However, we will NOT tolerate discrimination due to any of these things. If you can abide by these simple rules, we're happy to have you. If not, please feel free to keep searching for the perfect site for you! ;)

[maddog]

... I ... now am not a scientist, so am basically stuck.

... I need some help on how I can refute him and the theory of evolution.

 

I support Evolution, so it would hard for to help you refute what I support. Though I

would not insult you as this individual has done. I agree with Irish. I would not wish to

fight your "war" here on this forum... ;)

 

Maddog

[Thelonious]

Basically let me, explain what is going on. I am from another forum and I was having a debate with someone on the subject of "Evolution vs Creation" now am not a scientist, so am basically stuck.

 

There are many facets to this debate. It is not clear what position you are arguing from. Judging by the opposition's comments, it seems you are arguing from the Muslim stance. Admittedly, I have no experience arguing that position. However, I may have a few tips for you.

 

Read up on intelligent design.

If you are a Qur'an literalist, it would be hard to find scripture that is not dismissive in nature and will support an argument that agrees with science.

If you are not a literalist, I would suggest looking for scripture that shows the Qur'an is in agreement with science, but not on evolution, keeping in mind that much of what is written is metaphor.

 

Lastly, I wish to caution you. Turning a blind eye toward science because it disagrees with certain passages from religious texts is downright dangerous. In most cases, rejecting evolution also means rejecting parts of physics, chemistry, geology, et cetera. Remember the bottom line: if God is almighty, as defined by The Bible, Qur'an, et al., then God can can create the universe and life any way He wishes, including a Big Bang and evolution. Do not simply dismiss or ignore science.

[Stargazer]

There is really nothing to bridge science and religion, and even less that could make it possible to somehow mix them both up, since they are so different in methods. It's not at all necessary to believe old myths just because one wants to. If the truth about the nature is what you're after, science is the best choice.

[Rizwan Bin-Qasim]

Sorry about this I should have clarified a little more. This other individual I am having a debate with is a follower of the Dharmic faith and I am a follower of the Abrahamic faith, i.e he is a Sikh and I am a Muslim.

 

He posted:

dots why dont you state a topic? shall we discuss the "dharmic vs abrahamic" debate? i really dont care what we discuss.

 

I posted:

You make the first post on "dharmic vs abrahamic" and I will debate you. As long as you make the initial post I am not bothered. We can debate anything.

 

He posted:

OK, so your argument is this

1) Allah created the unvirse? - [i want you to Prove it! now]

2) Adam & Eve were the first two people on earth

3) Noah saved mankind from a flood

4) the child-****ing prophet is the only true & last messenger

5) And gay Jesus (the stupid Jew) got his *** nailed to a cross

 

Okkkkkkkkkkkayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

 

I posted:

Firstly I want to bring the attention of the admins to the insulting/racist behavior of some individuals on this forum

 

Anyway...

Various people who have heard of the “theory of evolution" may believe that these concepts only concern the field of ecology and that they have no implication in their daily lives. This is a big misunderstanding for the reason that far more than a biological perception, the hypothesis of evolution constitutes the underpinnings of a deceitful philosophy that has held sway over an enormous amount of people.

 

That philosophy is "materialism", which holds a number of phony views about why and how we came into being. Materialism maintains that there is nothing but the matter and that matter is the fundamental nature of all, be it organic or inorganic. Opening out from this argument, it denies the continuation of a celestial Creator, that is, Allah. Reducing all to the level of matter, this concept transforms man into a creature that heeds only matter and turns away from moral principles of whatever category. This is the commencement of big disasters that will occur in a man's life.

 

The detriments of materialism are not only partial to persons. Materialism also seeks to eradicate the crucial morals on which the state and society rest and produce a dismal and tactless society that pays concentration only to matter. Since the members of such a society can never have idealistic philosophy such as love for one's people, righteousness, fidelity, integrity, altruism, respect, or good morals, the social order established by these folks is predestined to be traumatized in a short while. For these reasons, materialism is one of the severest menaces to the fundamental principles of the political and social order of a nation.

 

The conjecture of evolution also constitutes the ostensible scientific foundation of materialism that the communist ideology depends on. By taking the theory of evolution as an allusion, communism seeks to validate itself and to present its ideology as sound and accurate. This is why the founder of communism, Karl Marx, wrote for Darwin's book, “The Origin of Species” which laid the foundation for the theory of evolution as "this is the book which contains the basis in accepted history for our observation".

 

In point of fact, materialist philosophy of every type, Marx's ideas being primary among them, have absolutely collapsed for the reason that the hypothesis of evolution, which is in fact a 19th century doctrine on which materialism rests, has been absolutely invalidated by the findings of modern science. Science has disproved and continues to contradict the materialist hypothesis that recognizes the existence of nothing but matter and it demonstrates that all beings are the yield of creation by a superior being.

 

The purpose of this post is to divulge the scientific facts that refute the theory of evolution in all fields and to notify people about the ulterior, core, and real principle of this so-called "science", which is in fact a deception.

 

It should be pointed out that evolutionists like Saka Dragon, Wankstar, and others have no answer to give to the post you are now reading. And they will not even endeavor to answer it for they are aware that such an act will merely help everyone to a better understanding that evolution is basically a lie.

 

He posted:

I never insulted you personally. And how the hell can I be a racist? I am brown my self.

From what you have written it does not in anyway justify Adam and Eve unless Adam and Eve were Dinosaurs??? and humans have misread the word of of God. I mean humans have misread many things only later to find out the True the meaning. After we thought the world was triangle!!!! only later to find out the truth.

 

Adam and Eve is flawed. Another reason for Adam and Eve is evil those who don't beleive in Adam and Eve i.e Dharmic people like myself are children of the devil. Again showing haterd towards another Race of people and haterd to their beliefs. Muslims want to kill everyone and take over the world like thier brothers the Jews and the Christians - I love it when thay kill each other lol

 

I posted:

Adam and Eve is flawed. Another reason for Adam and Eve is ewll those who don't beleive in Adam and Eve i.e Dharmic people like myself are children of the devil. Again showing haterd towards another Race of people and haterd to their beliefs.

 

Lie, Racism whether upon open or hidden, is an evil aspect of life which Islams seeks to eradicate. It is clear from the versus of the Quran, the book of the muslims, and many sayings of our final prophet which have narrated by his companions, that differences in colour, tribes, races, or traditions are not to be excuses for unjust behaviour or treatment. The Quran rehearses the words of the almighty Allah which reasons against racial discrimination and puts an end to it in Islam.

 

"O Mankind, we created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you in to tribes and nations so that you may know each other (not that you despise each other). Verily, the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is he who is most righteous of you." (Al-Quran, Chapter 49, Verse 13)

 

Allah explains the reason behind why he created mankind and then put them in to alternative tribes and nations. It is made clear and all doubts are seized when the most merciful Allah states:

 

"that you may know each other"

.

 

He posted:

DNA. every organsims is built up on it. if organisms did not have common ancestors why would they share such a complex molecule?

why would they share so many identical codons on that molecule?

the reason evolution is accepted as fact is because:

1) there is no evidence that falsifies it

2) every piece of evidence and every observation in fact supports the theory and makes it stronger

 

I posted:

 

DNA dosnt prove that we evoloed that is a pretty stupid

 

Darwin (he is an evolutionist) had never undergone a formal schooling in ecology. He took only an amateur curiosity in the subject of nature and living things.

 

Darwin was impressed by various living species, particularly by certain finches that he saw in the Galapagos Islands.

 

He thought that the variations in their beaks were caused by their adjustment to their habitat. With this idea in mind, he supposed that the derivation of life and variety lay in the notion of "adaptation to the environment". According to Darwin, singular living species were not produced independently by Allah but rather came from an ordinary ancestor and became differentiated from each other as a consequence of natural forces.

 

Darwin called this development "evolution by natural selection". He thought he had found the "origin of species":

 

the origin of one species was an additional species. He published these views in his book titled The Origin of Species, By Means of Natural Selection in 1859.

 

Darwin was well conscious that his hypothesis faced lots of problems. He confessed these in his book in the chapter "Difficulties of the Theory". These difficulties principally consisted of the fossil confirmation, multifaceted organs of living things that could not possibly be explained by coincidence (e.g. the eye), and the instincts of living beings. Darwin hoped that these difficulties would be prevail over by new discoveries; yet this did not stop him from coming up with a number of very laughable explanations for some. The American physicist Lipson made the following remark on the "difficulties" of Darwin:

On understanding The Origin of Species, I found that Darwin was much less certain himself than he is often represented to be; the subdivision entitled "Difficulties of the Theory" for illustration, shows substantial self-doubt. As a physicist, I was predominantly intrigued by his explanation on how the eye would have arisen.

As procedure of nature, natural medley was recognizable to biologists before Darwin, who defined it as a "system that keeps species static without being degraded". Darwin was the first person to put forward the declaration that this development had evolutionary authority and he then erected his complete theory on the underpinning of this statement. The name he gave to his book indicates that expected variety was the basis of Darwin's hypothesis: The Origin of Species, by means of Natural Selection...

Yet since Darwin's time, there has not been a solitary shred of verification put forward to show that natural selection causes living beings to change. Colin Patterson, the higher-ranking paleontologist of the Museum of Natural History in England, who is also a famous evolutionist by the way, stresses that natural selection has never been pragmatic to have the power to cause things to evolve:

No one has ever created a species by mechanisms of natural selection. No one has ever got close to it and most of the present dispute in neo-Darwinism is about this issue.

Natural selection holds that those living things that are more suitable to the natural circumstances of their habitat will triumph by having offspring that will continue to exist, whereas those that are unfit will ebb. For example, in a deer flock under the danger of wild animals, naturally those that can run quicker will endure. That is true. But no matter how long this procedure goes on, it will not change those deer into another living variety. The deer will forever remain deer.

Whilst we look at the few incidents the evolutionists have put forward as pragmatic examples of natural selection, we see that these are nothing but a straightforward attempt to deceive.

 

He posted:

Dharmic faiths, generally dont go on about the creation of the universe. There are mentions to it in the Vedas, but it is considered less important than actually being here and realising your duties whilst here.

 

Sikhism, in particular, refers to the birth of Guru Nanak as "Guru Nanak Parkash utsav", which means that the birth of Guru Nanak into this world was a ray of light in what was previously darkness.

 

We're here now. We were not here THEN. That is common theme of all dharmic faiths. And keeping with that stance, and with how hinduism is very pro-animal (in most cases, animal worship), it is generally pro-evolution and not in anyway, averse to natural scientific theory - unlike Christianity and Islam.

 

I posted:

 

Dharmic faiths, generally dont go on about the creation of the universe.

 

 

Because they can’t, hence why Dharmic faiths don’t appeal to most individuals, if there is no rationalization to the establishment of the universe then how can you consider the scriptures to be divine when some elementary principals are omitted like how the world was formed/created? Essentially what this means is Dharmic faiths cannot elucidate on the subject of creation so the scriptures move on to other things that can be effortlessly explained by anyone or even be fabricated. For the reason that they are explained hypothetically, witch really doesn’t give explanation to anything and generally leaves people at a loss of what the conjecture was theoretical trying to prove or explain fundamentally it’s a waste of time you don’t really learn anything.

 

And going by your analogy, I think its perfectly OK to do a 2-step jump at the base of the staircase and take it from there.

 

It’s not, “perfectly OK” when you drive a car you don’t jump from first to 5th do you? Or from 3rd to 1st you do it in a sequential array. So for the debate to flow properly you must start from the beginning. The universe was created before people were put on it, you can't be selective in your debate and just disregard the fundamental and that is the creation of the universe. And jump on to how Adam and Eve go on earth.

 

That if no one can offer an explanation as to how the universe was created, then Allah created it. If Allah created the universe, then Allah created day and night. If Allah did that, then Allah put Adam&Eve on the planet.

 

In the solitary book exposed by Allah that has survived absolutely intact, the Quran, there are statements about the formation of the universe from nothing as well as how this came about that are corresponding to 20th-century comprehension and yet were revealed fourteen centuries ago.

Foremost of all, the creation of this universe from emptiness is exposed in the Quran as follows:

He(Allah) is the Originator of the heavens and the earth…(Surat al-Anam: 101)

an additional important characteristic revealed in the Quran fourteen centuries before the modern finding of the Big Bang and answer related to it is that when it was created, the universe occupied a very minuscule volume:

Do those who are disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not have faith? (Surat al-Anbiya': 30)

Also note what every living this is made of water!

Devoid of water, you get dehydrated, and when you are dehydrated you are out of dear energy and before you know it, you're dead! Your body is about 80% made out of water; without water we wouldn't be living, breathing, walking! Or reading this post!

 

--------

 

This is were I am at the moment. I hope you all understand now...

[IrishEyes]

Why are you HERE, at this site?

Are you looking for proof of evolution? Are you looking for proof that Allah created the universe? What exactly are you trying to accomplish by posting your discussions from another Forum here?

I will ask you to please consider the length of your post. It is perfectly acceptable to paraphrase this into a much more condensed version.

If you continue to post threads from another forum, they will be deleted and you will be asked to not post again. We welcome anyone to our discussions, but you must understand that we will not tolerate the type of posts that you have indicated. And frankly, I'd be very surprised if your quoted posts last very long here. Tolerant of others views as some of us are, we also do not condone treating anyone the way you have described in your posts.

Thanks for reading our FAQ and understanding our position.

[Rizwan Bin-Qasim]

Why are you HERE, at this site?

Are you looking for proof of evolution? Are you looking for proof that Allah created the universe? What exactly are you trying to accomplish by posting your discussions from another Forum here?

I will ask you to please consider the length of your post. It is perfectly acceptable to paraphrase this into a much more condensed version.

If you continue to post threads from another forum, they will be deleted and you will be asked to not post again. We welcome anyone to our discussions, but you must understand that we will not tolerate the type of posts that you have indicated. And frankly, I'd be very surprised if your quoted posts last very long here. Tolerant of others views as some of us are, we also do not condone treating anyone the way you have described in your posts.

Thanks for reading our FAQ and understanding our position.

 

You've missed the point completely. What I want is someone to give me more unbiased information on evolution. Thanks!

[Tormod]

Then why are you posting his views here instead of participating in our discussions on evolution yourself?

[pgrmdave]

I think that if you go back and review all of our other discussions on evolution, specifically evolution vs. creationism, you'll get all the information that you need.

[Stargazer]

You've missed the point completely. What I want is someone to give me more unbiased information on evolution. Thanks!

There's plenty of info online about the part of biology that is evolution, and should be lots of it at your library as well. Exactly what do you want to find? Unbiased how?

[Freethinker]

OK, let me try. I've only given things a cursory once over. But the interest seems to be Creationism, this time perhaps Koran based, rather than Christian Bible based as opposed to factual science, Evolution.

 

If you want to deal with facts in your life, Evolution is the theory which is best supported by factual observations and offers the most accurate form for predictions. IOW SCIENCE.

 

If you want mythology and superstition, read the Koran. (or bible, they are BOTH Abrahamic)

[Rizwan Bin-Qasim]

If you want mythology and superstition, read the Koran. (or bible, they are BOTH Abrahamic)

 

I want to debate you on that point,

 

 

Post edited by IrishEyes. Please see below post for explanation.

You've been warned. Banning is your next step if this happens again.

.......

[IrishEyes]

Rizwan Bin-Qasim,

I'm not sure what you think of as a debate, but our FAQ is very clear that you may not cut and paste from another source and call it your own work. Your post has been deleted, and you are hereby officially warned that if this happens again, you will be banned from this site.

 

We welcome people from all walks of life, and encourage our members to have discussions with each other. That is one of the ways that we learn. There is much learning that happens here, usually through the exchange of ideas and the exposure to new concepts.

 

Many of us are familiar with the Qur'un. We would enjoy the chance to hear what YOU have to say about it. However, your words should be your own, not from another site. Using another site to prove a particular point is fine, as long as you give credit where credit is due.

 

Let's get past this and move on, and exchange some original ideas, shall we?

 

and one last little tip... GOOGLE is a wonderful thing. Try copying any group of at least five words, putting them in quotation marks, and searching Google, ok? One of the first sites that comes up for your post is

Ahmed-Giron Quran and Modern Science Debate:

Ahmed’s opening presentation for 60 minutes.

http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com

 

It basically contains your post, word for word.

 

Nice try though... really.

[Rizwan Bin-Qasim]

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

[Tormod]

Irish, it's your call now.