On the good ship lollipop: sex and blood

[motherengine]

are humans the only known animal species that has an inconsistency concerning sexual behavior and menstration [i.e. people who begin having a mentrual cycle are still sexually immature] and if so why? are the minds of children conditioned in such a way as to retard sexual maturity? how could the body be wrong when it is clearly saying 'wake up, time to reproduce'? i have my own theory on this but i am interested in hearing others.

[OpenMind5]

I personal thik it is all about the person and their hormones. Everyone matures at different rates mentally, and physically, they don't go side by side somtimes. Someone may be "ready" as you put it, but not developed in any way. Speaking from a male point of view and what i know of anatomy, (My top and favorite subject) hormones control almost everything with sex-drive. I'm not sure how Tormod feels about this convo, so i will stick to the hormons. In the body, the tissues are different and there are different hormones based on what its target tissue is. It maybe be explainable just by the rate or quanity the hormones are being released....or being taken in. You have to take into account of location and environment. And also its a know fact that sometimes your in the mood and sometimes you just plain arn't.

 

Hope I helped and not offended,

OP5

[Tormod]

I must admit ignorance to this field. But the subject linje was incredible. ;)

[motherengine]

thanks for the responses. this is actually a serious post despite the provocative title (which i gather is a touchy thing here).

[Queso]

during this period of the past few hundreds of years, we have gathered scientifical information about ourselves, and i think maybe there are some kinks to work out with evolution. ;) we have come a long way, but, we have a long ways to go.

[Fishteacher73]

One theory is that in todays modern culture, our food supplies are filled with various hormones that help stimulate physical maturity. On the other end of the spectrum, in many of today's cultures the transition into adulthood is slowly being pushed back (50 years ago, adulthood was pretty much attained at 18. Today culturally most people really are not considered "adults" until the mid-20's after graduation from college. Granted the legal deffinition has not changed).

[IrishEyes]

thanks for the responses. this is actually a serious post despite the provocative title (which i gather is a touchy thing here).

 

No, mother engine, normally titles are NOT a touchy thing here. Sometimes we even TRY to be rather provocative in our titles, just to get people to open up the thread and share their ideas. I will readily admit to doing so myself a few times, as I'm sure most will do. I actually enjoy titles that make you go "hmmmm", and frankly, thinking up the title is often the most fun part of the post for me.

 

To the subject of the thread though - I've recently started checking into this as well, as a friend's 9 year old daughter started her menstrual cycle, and I thought that was VERY early... Animal steroids are one possible cause, as well as some others... check out some of these links that discuss the issue...

 

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/menstruation.htm

http://www.mindfully.org/Health/PBBs-Fire-Retardant-Menstruation.htm

http://www.askdrwarren.com/qa970512.htm#q4

http://www.healthsquare.com/fgwh/wh1ch02.htm

 

Basically, the general concensus seems to be that early menstruation is either hormonal(excess hormones in relation to age), or related to an outside factor, such as the PBBs noted in the second link. I didn't find a link that specifically indicated animal steroid or antibiotics, but I know that I have a flier on it from the pediatrician...

 

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject though, mother engine.

[IrishEyes]

I just found a great site that speaks directly to this topic, or at least what I think this topic is asking... ;)

 

Check this out...

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/puberty.html

 

I haven't checked out the author yet, other than what is said on this page, but here are her creds... About the Author:

Dr Sherrill Sellman, ND, is the author of the best-selling books Hormone Heresy: What Women MUST Know About Their Hormones (GetWell International, 1996, 2001, 4th edition) and MOTHERS: Prevent Your Daughters From Getting Breast Cancer, as well as an international lecturer and women's health advocate.

 

The site lists numerous reasons for 'precocious puberty', and seems like a decent reference point, if you're interested.

[motherengine]

thank you for the site information irisheyes. the issue of hormonal imbalence due to consumption of milk (among other foods) seems to have a growing relevence. the general consensus seems to be that 'normal' menstration occurs at around 12 to 13 years of age however so i am more interested in how conditioning does or does not relate to the psychological aspects of sexual maturity. i resently saw a film called 'anatomy of hell' and in the accompanying interview (much more interesting than the film itself i think) with the director she discussed the idea that contemporary culture (she is french but i believe she was generalizing) set up girls to be violated by creating a myth of femininity [girls like pink and certain behaviors are not 'ladylike' for example] and requiring that children comply to these myths. the reason i mention this is because i believe that there is a truth in the idea that sexual maturity is suplanted by preconceived notions of what sexuality is and how one should feel about it and that possibly sexual abuses somehow are related to this kind of forced perspective.

[IrishEyes]

i believe that there is a truth in the idea that sexual maturity is suplanted by preconceived notions of what sexuality is and how one should feel about it and that possibly sexual abuses somehow are related to this kind of forced perspective.

Ok, I'm not sure I follow this. Could you explain it a little more?

I don't understand the last part, especially, about sexual abuses possibly being related to this forced perspective.

I think that sexual abuse has very little, if anything, to do with any notions of what sexuality is. I've actually done quite a bit of research on this topic, but not all of it is on my computer, most of it is in actual books. However, I will dig for what I have if you're interested...

As for the idea that sexual maturity is supplanted by preconceived notions of what sexuality is and how one should feel about it, I would agree, and have also seen some very informal studies done on this. I've been reading about how to handle a teenaged girl since I found out I was pregnant with my first daughter 13 years ago. So I've done reading on just about every subject you could imagine that in any way related to young girls - from Sassy Magazine, to scientific studies, to everything in between. While I'm in no way an expert, I do think I know a little bit about this particular subject, and I'd be happy to exchange ideas, if you're interested...

[motherengine]

i must admit to being a adhd victim so it is very difficult for me to structure sentences without confusion being the end result for the examiner. because of this and the fact that i dislike long posts we may need to go back and forth a bit on this one. if so, i appreciate your patience.

 

1- as far as the preconcieved truth and sexual maturity i am referring to the idea that (generally speaking) the sexual maturity of children are retarded by raising the them with the notion that they are innocent sexually (male infants do have erections in the womb) and that they should be sheltered from sexual knowledge. also there is the possibility that female children are dressed up in a fragile and 'sweet' image which may invite the desire for degradation in some males. if we are animals than to dress one as something unnaturally non-animalistic may provoke the want of 'breaking her down' back to an innately percieved animal nature.

 

2- maybe i should just leave the last part alone due to its propensity to make me seem wacko as well as make anyone reading this VERY uncomfortable. but since i wrote it i might as well clarify. i have had some experience with child sexual abuse (not as a participant but through family and friends) and there has always been a little itch in the back of my mind when hearing about these abuses suggesting that, desructive and ugly as they are, maybe there are some disturbing societal aspects invoved. from what i understand the highly sexual nature of bonobo apes extends to genital rubbing between parents and offspring. this lead me to question if some social mores have added to the unpleasantness of child abuse by stigmatizing desires and actions 'evil' that may be simply be natural appetences distorted through the process of civilized structuring [building communities and creating tenets for maintaining the semblance of order]. in other words the act may have a more damaging effect on an individuals psyche because of its stigma. not at all suggesting that every parent wants to have sexual relations with his/her children, but that the act may not be as much of a violation without the stigma of it being a violation already in the mind of the perpetrator and forced onto the mind of the victim. i am aware of the use of words like victim here but they represent only my limitations articulating rather than a contradiction of the idea. then again, now that i have clarified, you may just want to drop this part of the discussion all together. wouldn't blame you. :)

[Tormod]

Hm, this is a touchy subject, yes, but I think I get the gist of what you're saying.

 

I think it is natural that the stigmatisation of sexual abuse of children leads to even more pain for the victims. After all, the abused child often feels that (s)he has done something wrong and is to blame for the act. It is also a completely unspeakable subject in just about every culture as far as I know.

[IrishEyes]

i must admit to being a adhd victim so it is very difficult for me to structure sentences without confusion being the end result for the examiner. because of this and the fact that i dislike long posts we may need to go back and forth a bit on this one. if so, i appreciate your patience.

PLEASE don't apologize for who you are, ok? As for being an ADHD 'victim', that should really have its own thread, as long as you are fully prepared to hear LOTS of my opinion on that subject. Also, being married to a person that was diagnosed ADHD, I somewhat understand the capabilities and limitiations that it imposes.

 

As to the rest of your post, I will have to give it some serious consideration.

 

You are right, it is a very tough subject, and I'm not sure where you are going with this. Let me think about it for a bit and figure out if I can discuss this with you or not, as I know what a delicate subject this is. Thanks for YOUR patience...

[Fishteacher73]

I think that the marginilization of an act by a society by terming it "taboo" I think in some way feeds the negative aspect of such actions. Homosexuality I think is a prime example. In ancient Greece it was not uncommon for male patrons to have a younger male for sexual favors. Over time the concept of homosexuality gained a negative connotation, to the point that people were essentially lynched (Its is slightly better now these days, but there is still along way to go). This marginalization fed into the secrecy of such groups, and often helped propogate some of the myths of the group (ie promiscuity, association with other marginalized groups, etc.) This stigmata has prompted many a suicide and much self-degrading behavior (drug use, etc.). A self-fulfilling prophesy so to speak..